Right. And the problem is, quite often those "data/values" turn out to be objects too, and for no good reason. Take the whole Active Records approach, for examp

Right. And the problem is, quite often those "data/values" turn out to be objects too, and for no good reason. Take the whole Active Records approach, for example, re-implemented in Java in the most straightforward way possible: you have a class with data fields (well, with getters/setters) but it also has "Save()/Load()" methods on it. Ugh.