4 ms·

I think detecting when a driver is falling asleep could be an amazing safety feature. You would need privacy guarantees about where camera data is going, but I

by umvi 6y ago

I think detecting when a driver is falling asleep could be an amazing safety feature. You would need privacy guarantees about where camera data is going, but I think it would be worth the tradeoff.

masklinn 6y ago
> I think detecting when a driver is falling asleep could be an amazing safety feature. Welcome to 14 years ago, which is when Toyota first introduced their DMS/DAM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_Monitoring_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_Monitoring_System More generally, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_drowsiness_detection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_drowsiness_detection
- me_me_me 6y ago
  If history is a teacher, Musk is going to invent it in few years.
  - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    An actual few years, or a "fully self driving cars are a few years away" few years?
- xedeon 6y ago
  Not even close in terms of complexity. I used many of the "Driver Drowsiness" detection from Toyota, BMW and MBenz on my previous cars. They always had false positives, inconsistent and pretty rudimentary. What you're implying is akin to saying Nokia/Ericsson/Palm had smartphones before the iPhone 1 came along. Therefore the iPhone is a non-event. ️ The "hacker" mentioned in this article discovered these detection labels on the Model 3/Y "selfie" camera: BLINDED DARK EYES_CLOSED EYES_DOWN EYES_NOMINAL EYES_UP HEAD_DOWN HEAD_TRUNC LOOKING_LEFT LOOKING_RIGHT PHONE_USE SUNGLASSES_EYES_LIKELY_NOMINAL SUNGLASSES_LIKELY_EYES_DOWN Maybe I'm missing something. But it seems like an apples to oranges in comparison to me. Correct me if I am wrong, but Comma.ai's driving monitoring feature is currently the only one in production that is comparable.
  - blacksmith_tb 6y ago
    Hmm, "HEAD_TRUNC" presumably means out of the frame, but given we're talking about hurtling pieces of metal, it conjures up nastier images for me somehow.
  - masklinn 6y ago
    > Not even close in terms of complexity. You are asserting with no idea whatsoever, or relevance really given you're apparently ignoring that I was answering a very specific comment. > What you're implying is akin to saying Nokia/Ericsson/Palm had smartphones before the iPhone 1 came along. Therefore the iPhone is a non-event. ️ One, it really is not, there's nothing impressive-looking so far. Two, tesla's record of "game changing" is mostly "game changing marketing", and while you should absolutely feel free to give them all the benefit of every doubt, I really don't feel so inclined. > The "hacker" mentioned in this article discovered these detection labels on the Model 3/Y "selfie" camera: These are just events it might be able to generate, it tells you nothing about how well the events are detected and how the consumer of those events integrates them. What do you think exactly, that other manufacturers just get a magical yes/no blob?
    - xedeon 6y ago
      > You are asserting with no idea whatsoever, or relevance really given you're apparently ignoring that I was answering a very specific comment. I am directly addressing your comment about "DMS/DAM". How is that not relevant? > One, it really is not, there's nothing impressive-looking so far. What is impressive to you? That's what the critics said when the iPhone 1 was announced. That's what many also said about electric cars. Funny how the metrics (sales/safety) played out on that one. > These are just events it might be able to generate, it tells you nothing about how well the events are detected and how the consumer of those events integrates them. The fact that it can detect those events using a specialized redundant NPU hardware is a far cry from "Driver drowsiness detection" and "DMS/DAM" from "14 years ago". Hence, an apple to oranges comparison. > What do you think exactly, that other manufacturers just get a magical yes/no blob? It's interesting you ask that, because they mostly are binary logic if you look at the ECU firmware. Some "Driver drowsiness detection" (MBenz) systems will also just beep at random intervals after driving non-stop for 1 hour. But they still market them as being able to "detect" drowsiness. George Hotz talked about this many times. They also don't have any firmware code signing whatsoever (esp Toyota) which presents a security risk. Out of curiosity, which of the DMS/DAM systems do you have experience with?
ryandrake 6y ago
There are a lot of features that are, in and of themselves, really great, but I would not use until the privacy and data sharing issues are resolved. This is unfortunately a growing problem that many device manufacturers and software makers are making worse.

by umvi 6y ago

I think detecting when a driver is falling asleep could be an amazing safety feature. You would need privacy guarantees about where camera data is going, but I think it would be worth the tradeoff.

masklinn 6y ago

> I think detecting when a driver is falling asleep could be an amazing safety feature. Welcome to 14 years ago, which is when Toyota first introduced their DMS/DAM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_Monitoring_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_Monitoring_System More generally, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_drowsiness_detection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_drowsiness_detection

me_me_me 6y ago
If history is a teacher, Musk is going to invent it in few years.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  An actual few years, or a "fully self driving cars are a few years away" few years?
xedeon 6y ago
Not even close in terms of complexity. I used many of the "Driver Drowsiness" detection from Toyota, BMW and MBenz on my previous cars. They always had false positives, inconsistent and pretty rudimentary. What you're implying is akin to saying Nokia/Ericsson/Palm had smartphones before the iPhone 1 came along. Therefore the iPhone is a non-event. ️ The "hacker" mentioned in this article discovered these detection labels on the Model 3/Y "selfie" camera: BLINDED DARK EYES_CLOSED EYES_DOWN EYES_NOMINAL EYES_UP HEAD_DOWN HEAD_TRUNC LOOKING_LEFT LOOKING_RIGHT PHONE_USE SUNGLASSES_EYES_LIKELY_NOMINAL SUNGLASSES_LIKELY_EYES_DOWN Maybe I'm missing something. But it seems like an apples to oranges in comparison to me. Correct me if I am wrong, but Comma.ai's driving monitoring feature is currently the only one in production that is comparable.
- blacksmith_tb 6y ago
  Hmm, "HEAD_TRUNC" presumably means out of the frame, but given we're talking about hurtling pieces of metal, it conjures up nastier images for me somehow.
- masklinn 6y ago
  > Not even close in terms of complexity. You are asserting with no idea whatsoever, or relevance really given you're apparently ignoring that I was answering a very specific comment. > What you're implying is akin to saying Nokia/Ericsson/Palm had smartphones before the iPhone 1 came along. Therefore the iPhone is a non-event. ️ One, it really is not, there's nothing impressive-looking so far. Two, tesla's record of "game changing" is mostly "game changing marketing", and while you should absolutely feel free to give them all the benefit of every doubt, I really don't feel so inclined. > The "hacker" mentioned in this article discovered these detection labels on the Model 3/Y "selfie" camera: These are just events it might be able to generate, it tells you nothing about how well the events are detected and how the consumer of those events integrates them. What do you think exactly, that other manufacturers just get a magical yes/no blob?
  - xedeon 6y ago
    > You are asserting with no idea whatsoever, or relevance really given you're apparently ignoring that I was answering a very specific comment. I am directly addressing your comment about "DMS/DAM". How is that not relevant? > One, it really is not, there's nothing impressive-looking so far. What is impressive to you? That's what the critics said when the iPhone 1 was announced. That's what many also said about electric cars. Funny how the metrics (sales/safety) played out on that one. > These are just events it might be able to generate, it tells you nothing about how well the events are detected and how the consumer of those events integrates them. The fact that it can detect those events using a specialized redundant NPU hardware is a far cry from "Driver drowsiness detection" and "DMS/DAM" from "14 years ago". Hence, an apple to oranges comparison. > What do you think exactly, that other manufacturers just get a magical yes/no blob? It's interesting you ask that, because they mostly are binary logic if you look at the ECU firmware. Some "Driver drowsiness detection" (MBenz) systems will also just beep at random intervals after driving non-stop for 1 hour. But they still market them as being able to "detect" drowsiness. George Hotz talked about this many times. They also don't have any firmware code signing whatsoever (esp Toyota) which presents a security risk. Out of curiosity, which of the DMS/DAM systems do you have experience with?

ryandrake 6y ago

There are a lot of features that are, in and of themselves, really great, but I would not use until the privacy and data sharing issues are resolved. This is unfortunately a growing problem that many device manufacturers and software makers are making worse.