8 ms·

Orwell and HG Wells were both really taken by Basic English at first, with Wells arguing it could help build a singular world government. Orwell later became cy

Orwell and HG Wells were both really taken by Basic English at first, with Wells arguing it could help build a singular world government. Orwell later became cynical about it, focusing on its lack of any words for things like "revolution." It became an inspiration for newspeak in 1984. (I honestly think this particular concern was a bit of a straw man of Wells' and Ogden's optimistic views, a lingua franca used in a few settings doesn't have to be a straightjacket for all contexts. But it made 1984, so maybe fine in the end.)

dash2 6y ago
Just found rule 5: Negative adjectives are formed with "UN"- Double plus ungood, citizen!
- booleandilemma 6y ago
  Your comment gave me good bellyfeel.
AQXt 6y ago
The vocabulary is designed to deal with two distinct levels: 1. The 850 words sufficient for ordinary communications to idiomatic English. 2. By the addition of 100 words required for general science, and 50 for any particular science I guess "revolution" would be one of the words in political science?
ravi-delia 6y ago
The wonderful thing about having a language with a handful of core words and endless composition is that you never lack a word for anything. Make-un-government I'd expect.
- wsc981 6y ago
  > The wonderful thing about having a language with a handful of core words and endless composition is that you never lack a word for anything. Make-un-government I'd expect. It seems the Thai language is a bit like that. Some examples: - good => 'dee' - not => 'mai' - bad => 'mai dee' (not good) - much => 'mak' - great => 'dee mak' (good much) - study => 'rian' - theater => 'rong' - school => 'rong rian' (theater study) - work => 'ngaan' - factory => 'rong ngaan' (theater work) - movies => 'phapyon' - cinema => 'rong phapyon' (theater movies) - nurse => 'phayabaan' - hospital => 'rong phayabaan' (theater nurse) - food => 'ahan' - store => 'ran' - restaurant => 'ran ahan' (store food) - trade => 'khaa' - shop => 'ran khaa' (store trade) - motor => 'yon' - carriage => 'rod' - car => 'rod yon' (carriage motor) - fire => 'fai' - train => 'rod fai' (carriage fire) - carry => 'bantuk' - truck => 'rod bantuk' (carriage carry) - room => 'hong' - water => 'naam' - toilet => 'hong naam' (room water) - sleep => 'noon' - bedroom => 'hong noon' (room sleep) - underground => 'taidin' - cellar => 'hong taidin' (room underground) - sit => 'nang' - play => 'len' - living room => 'hong nang len' (room sit play) - dog => 'ma' - forest => 'pa' - wolf => 'ma pa' (dog forest) - tiger => 'sauw' - black => 'dam' - panther => 'sauw dam' (tiger black)
  - siltpotato 6y ago
    Yes, but what's the word for "revolution"?
  - lifthrasiir 6y ago
    Or German? Generally composite words seem more popular in languages that don't prefer loanwords in general, because there is a limited supply of native words (or morphemes). I think English is in the opposite extreme.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  https://xkcd.com/2043/ https://xkcd.com/2043/ I've been studying the Belter creole from the Expanse[1] and lack of vocabulary[2] is a substantial issue. However, circumlocution can work, and so I'd propose several revolutions, depending upon which side one is on[3]: (laudative) térash fo feriting burn (as in a ship's engines) for freedom (pejorative) gang belowt temporary excursion, involving lots of blood (cynical) du ganyamang owta we change the winners [1] TV Show. Normally I'd privilege books, but the authors have said theirs was just made up and shouldn't be considered canon, especially as the TV version is based on code-switching a proper creole. [2] with na- as a productive un-, very much like newspeak. [3] I believe this is attested: "Detim da belowt im ere da wowl, sasa kemang to xalte wit?" (when blood hits the walls, do you know where you stand?)
  - codezero 6y ago
    That's quite the hobby to pick up - what resources are you using to learn vocabulary / are there some communities for this, or is it all stitched together from the show?
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      Will answer more in depth tomorrow. For now: https://pensatingbik.tumblr.com/post/183320546205/learning-lang-belta-the-basics-list https://pensatingbik.tumblr.com/post/183320546205/learning-l...
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      There are resources[1] with communities[2], which are stitched together from the show[3]. I learned about lang belta from HN[4], and am interested because the poverty of attested vocabulary makes circumlocution essential. Beside the challenge, it's a language that has no L1 speakers, so milowda kowmang eka, we're all equally disadvantaged[5]. Beyond that, I guess I'm just a kuxakuwala, someone who's been stanning space ever since discovering SciFi[6]. Fo showxa fit natet, gova gif terash, kori gif ye mash.[7] [1] see showxating beranta, the brother comment, plus "lang belta" as a search term yields more, e.g. https://www.scifi-forum.de/forum/science-fiction/the-expanse/4533253-«the-expanse»-übersetzungen-der-gürtler-sprache-langbelta https://www.scifi-forum.de/forum/science-fiction/the-expanse... [2] which I have yet to explore. Maybe when I get closer to real-time productivity I'll be tempted enough to join discord and potentially even Patreon. (can I just make a payment directly to Nick Farmer? Do you all have IBAN in the US yet, so I can avoid third parties, like Patreon, SWIFT, etc.?) [3] as explained earlier, the show's creole is a retcon with authorial blessing, as it's been done by a langwala, a linguist, in an effort to produce a productive conlang. The show mainly codeswitches a "beltish" lect, with english as the acrolect but in principle (subject to willingness of audience, writers, and actors to exploit it) there's an underlying lang belta basilect. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezU-F028krU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezU-F028krU (some articles at https://palawandailynews.com https://palawandailynews.com probably contain equivalent mixes of english/filipino?) [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552727 [5] When the indians were imploring each other to "get yer brits out" ironically they had to do so in english, for similar reasons. [6] Compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24399840 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24399840 or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TAmISW76Rk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TAmISW76Rk [7] "To spit with flow, the head produces thrust yet it's the heart that provides reaction mass." after Quintilian (first century) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0068%3Abook%3D10%3Achapter%3D7%3Asection%3D15 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%...
sp332 6y ago
Well of course: oldthinkers unbellyfeel ingsoc.
MichaelMoser123 6y ago
Basic English is a very good tool for teaching English as a second language, but I think that wasn't the focus of both of them; Also Ogden was kind of interested to create a common language for science that lacks ambiguity; I don't think he thought much about politics.
mcguire 6y ago
As was Churchill, who tried to get Roosevelt interested, leading to this wonderful letter: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/10/Churchill_to_FDR_on_basic_english.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/10/Churchill_to_... “Incidentally, I wonder what the course of history would have been if in May 1940 you had been able to offer the British people only ‘blood, work, eye water and face water,’ which I understand is the best that Basic English can do with five famous words.”
marc_abonce 6y ago
> But it made 1984, so maybe fine in the end. I have the opposite impression. It is now impossible to have any conversation about conlangs or language reforms without most people parroting 1984 memes, this very thread is already an example of that. Which is very ironic because these people are just blindly parroting what a book says instead of thinking critically about a topic and forming their own opinions.
- 8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
  I mean the conclusion ends up being the same. Linguistics has understood for generations that language is formed by communities and shaped by need. Something like esperanto or an intentionally simplified english will never succeed as a universal language. People will use the words they find useful and create new words or usages as they find them valuable. Stuff like the academy francaise are just a fantasy relic from before this was widely understood about language.

dash2 6y ago

Just found rule 5: Negative adjectives are formed with "UN"- Double plus ungood, citizen!

booleandilemma 6y ago
Your comment gave me good bellyfeel.

AQXt 6y ago

The vocabulary is designed to deal with two distinct levels: 1. The 850 words sufficient for ordinary communications to idiomatic English. 2. By the addition of 100 words required for general science, and 50 for any particular science I guess "revolution" would be one of the words in political science?

ravi-delia 6y ago

The wonderful thing about having a language with a handful of core words and endless composition is that you never lack a word for anything. Make-un-government I'd expect.

wsc981 6y ago
> The wonderful thing about having a language with a handful of core words and endless composition is that you never lack a word for anything. Make-un-government I'd expect. It seems the Thai language is a bit like that. Some examples: - good => 'dee' - not => 'mai' - bad => 'mai dee' (not good) - much => 'mak' - great => 'dee mak' (good much) - study => 'rian' - theater => 'rong' - school => 'rong rian' (theater study) - work => 'ngaan' - factory => 'rong ngaan' (theater work) - movies => 'phapyon' - cinema => 'rong phapyon' (theater movies) - nurse => 'phayabaan' - hospital => 'rong phayabaan' (theater nurse) - food => 'ahan' - store => 'ran' - restaurant => 'ran ahan' (store food) - trade => 'khaa' - shop => 'ran khaa' (store trade) - motor => 'yon' - carriage => 'rod' - car => 'rod yon' (carriage motor) - fire => 'fai' - train => 'rod fai' (carriage fire) - carry => 'bantuk' - truck => 'rod bantuk' (carriage carry) - room => 'hong' - water => 'naam' - toilet => 'hong naam' (room water) - sleep => 'noon' - bedroom => 'hong noon' (room sleep) - underground => 'taidin' - cellar => 'hong taidin' (room underground) - sit => 'nang' - play => 'len' - living room => 'hong nang len' (room sit play) - dog => 'ma' - forest => 'pa' - wolf => 'ma pa' (dog forest) - tiger => 'sauw' - black => 'dam' - panther => 'sauw dam' (tiger black)
- siltpotato 6y ago
  Yes, but what's the word for "revolution"?
- lifthrasiir 6y ago
  Or German? Generally composite words seem more popular in languages that don't prefer loanwords in general, because there is a limited supply of native words (or morphemes). I think English is in the opposite extreme.
082349872349872 6y ago
https://xkcd.com/2043/ https://xkcd.com/2043/ I've been studying the Belter creole from the Expanse[1] and lack of vocabulary[2] is a substantial issue. However, circumlocution can work, and so I'd propose several revolutions, depending upon which side one is on[3]: (laudative) térash fo feriting burn (as in a ship's engines) for freedom (pejorative) gang belowt temporary excursion, involving lots of blood (cynical) du ganyamang owta we change the winners [1] TV Show. Normally I'd privilege books, but the authors have said theirs was just made up and shouldn't be considered canon, especially as the TV version is based on code-switching a proper creole. [2] with na- as a productive un-, very much like newspeak. [3] I believe this is attested: "Detim da belowt im ere da wowl, sasa kemang to xalte wit?" (when blood hits the walls, do you know where you stand?)
- codezero 6y ago
  That's quite the hobby to pick up - what resources are you using to learn vocabulary / are there some communities for this, or is it all stitched together from the show?
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Will answer more in depth tomorrow. For now: https://pensatingbik.tumblr.com/post/183320546205/learning-lang-belta-the-basics-list https://pensatingbik.tumblr.com/post/183320546205/learning-l...
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    There are resources[1] with communities[2], which are stitched together from the show[3]. I learned about lang belta from HN[4], and am interested because the poverty of attested vocabulary makes circumlocution essential. Beside the challenge, it's a language that has no L1 speakers, so milowda kowmang eka, we're all equally disadvantaged[5]. Beyond that, I guess I'm just a kuxakuwala, someone who's been stanning space ever since discovering SciFi[6]. Fo showxa fit natet, gova gif terash, kori gif ye mash.[7] [1] see showxating beranta, the brother comment, plus "lang belta" as a search term yields more, e.g. https://www.scifi-forum.de/forum/science-fiction/the-expanse/4533253-«the-expanse»-übersetzungen-der-gürtler-sprache-langbelta https://www.scifi-forum.de/forum/science-fiction/the-expanse... [2] which I have yet to explore. Maybe when I get closer to real-time productivity I'll be tempted enough to join discord and potentially even Patreon. (can I just make a payment directly to Nick Farmer? Do you all have IBAN in the US yet, so I can avoid third parties, like Patreon, SWIFT, etc.?) [3] as explained earlier, the show's creole is a retcon with authorial blessing, as it's been done by a langwala, a linguist, in an effort to produce a productive conlang. The show mainly codeswitches a "beltish" lect, with english as the acrolect but in principle (subject to willingness of audience, writers, and actors to exploit it) there's an underlying lang belta basilect. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezU-F028krU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezU-F028krU (some articles at https://palawandailynews.com https://palawandailynews.com probably contain equivalent mixes of english/filipino?) [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552727 [5] When the indians were imploring each other to "get yer brits out" ironically they had to do so in english, for similar reasons. [6] Compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24399840 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24399840 or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TAmISW76Rk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TAmISW76Rk [7] "To spit with flow, the head produces thrust yet it's the heart that provides reaction mass." after Quintilian (first century) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0068%3Abook%3D10%3Achapter%3D7%3Asection%3D15 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%...

sp332 6y ago

Well of course: oldthinkers unbellyfeel ingsoc.

MichaelMoser123 6y ago

Basic English is a very good tool for teaching English as a second language, but I think that wasn't the focus of both of them; Also Ogden was kind of interested to create a common language for science that lacks ambiguity; I don't think he thought much about politics.

mcguire 6y ago

As was Churchill, who tried to get Roosevelt interested, leading to this wonderful letter: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/10/Churchill_to_FDR_on_basic_english.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/10/Churchill_to_... “Incidentally, I wonder what the course of history would have been if in May 1940 you had been able to offer the British people only ‘blood, work, eye water and face water,’ which I understand is the best that Basic English can do with five famous words.”

marc_abonce 6y ago

> But it made 1984, so maybe fine in the end. I have the opposite impression. It is now impossible to have any conversation about conlangs or language reforms without most people parroting 1984 memes, this very thread is already an example of that. Which is very ironic because these people are just blindly parroting what a book says instead of thinking critically about a topic and forming their own opinions.

8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
I mean the conclusion ends up being the same. Linguistics has understood for generations that language is formed by communities and shaped by need. Something like esperanto or an intentionally simplified english will never succeed as a universal language. People will use the words they find useful and create new words or usages as they find them valuable. Stuff like the academy francaise are just a fantasy relic from before this was widely understood about language.