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I just want to point out that this headline is wrong and out of date already. After pulling out of F1, Honda has announced that they're going to be an engine s

I just want to point out that this headline is wrong and out of date already. After pulling out of F1, Honda has announced that they're going to be an engine supplier for Indycar. Technically, it's a different division of Honda (Honda USA) but this greenwashing of why they left F1 leaves a bad taste in my mouth. They're leaving because they're not successful and they're dumping a bunch of money in the sport. Edit: I made a mistake they've recommitted to supplying engines under the new hybrid rules that indycar is adopting in 2023.

kube-system 6y ago
> After pulling out of F1, Honda has announced that they're going to be an engine supplier for Indycar. Honda has been a supplier for engines in Indycar for decades
- davewritescode 6y ago
  You're correct, but as far as I knew they hadn't committed to building a new engine for the hybrid rules coming in 2023. As of yesterday, they had committed long term. Thanks for pointing it out, I'm not an indycar fan and I just saw the announcement that they were building a new hybrid. The point still stands, Honda isn't leaving F1 to focus on green tech, it's leaving because they're burning money and not seeing any return.
  - kube-system 6y ago
    >Honda isn't leaving F1 to focus on green tech, it's leaving because they're burning money and not seeing any return. Really, both are technically true. But you'd be a pretty bad PR representative if you phrased your announcement to emphasize the latter.
- animal_spirits 6y ago
  Yes, Honda is not trying to hide that they are switching resources from F1 to Indycar behind some greenwashing. They've been in Indy for a while now and I genuinely believe that they want to pull resources for carbon free tech
- jacobr1 6y ago
  Right, but it limits the virtue signaling of their stated reason for leaving F1. If leaving F1 was just about the environment, then they should limit their involvement with all ICE focused organizations. That said, Honda is a big conglomerate and it looks like this was the decision of one division and not the whole parent company. So I don't think they actually were being disingenuous in practice.
  - WorldMaker 6y ago
    If anything it continues to show how out of touch Honda America is with its parent company and siblings. Comparing Honda America's website and Honda Corporate/JP/CN/EU websites shows increasingly divergent values and interests. This is not something unique to Honda right now either: Nissan America also looks like an entirely different company to the rest of the Nissan Group. At one point Ghosn was trying to rebrand Nissan America as Datsun (again) and jettison the whole thing from the Nissan Group as a ticking time bomb of backwards detritus (deeply focused on a lucrative past of large energy inefficient vehicles with little brand recognition for energy efficiency). Obviously, that plan probably went out the window with Ghosn's whole weird situation, but Ghosn probably wasn't wrong in that Honda America and Nissan America at this point are liabilities/anchors weighing down their parent companies and where their parent companies now see the future of the industry. Unfortunately, Honda America and Nissan America currently still are profitable enough that they can afford to continue to ignore their parent companies and not start turning the ship in the right direction.
    - kube-system 6y ago
      Or, alternatively, does it show how Honda's (and Nissan's) parent companies are out of touch with the American buyer? American buyers don't hate energy efficiency -- look at the comparative success of Toyota hybrids in the US. Most of the tech that Nissan and Honda of Japan developed for energy efficiency wasn't engineered for powering the types of vehicles that Americans want to buy. The same goes for Mitsubishi too. Americans aren't going to spend ~$40,000 for a minimalistic sub-compact or microcar.
      - 6y ago
knute 6y ago
Also because the F1 audience is strongly concentrated in Europe, where Honda's market share is miniscule. Contrasted with Indycar, which is US-based, where Honda has a much larger presence.
- logicOnly 6y ago
  Interesting to hear about a major international company reducing their investments in Europe. "European pessimism" is this weird common knowledge about the decline of Europe. It's been written about in I, Robot. There is population decline but their GDP numbers look on-par with the United States. It's the major/minor events rather than numbers that seem to push this mindset of inevitable decline. Is it bad government policy? Or culture?
  - piva00 6y ago
    I think you are reading too much into this, Honda is just not as big in Europe as they are in the US, investment in F1 is a major investment for any car company, even more manufacturing engines that won't translate to their future engineering advancements in consumer products so it's a matter of investment in technology vs brand awareness/exposure, which for Honda in Europe doesn't make sense. To extrapolate that to a decline of Europe in terms of "European pessimism" is... Quite a leap. Even more as there is no definition of what "decline" you are meaning here, if it's for green technology I can definitely tell there isn't a decline in Europe, if it's cultural that is a much bigger topic (and much fuzzier) to talk about.
    - nihonde 6y ago
      I think you’re right. Honda isn’t even very popular in Japan. Distant second place behind Toyota, I think. Their mindshare here seems even less. When I lived in America, Honda was much more of a trusted brand there. Detroit went after them hard via the Takata defect, so I’m not sure about now.
      - olyjohn 6y ago
aloukissas 6y ago
Yup, right on. Mercedes Petronas has been destroying everyone.
anjc 6y ago
F1 isn't Indycar. The headline doesn't mentioned Indycar.
olyjohn 6y ago
How are they not successful? Red Bull racing is #2 in the constructors points this season. Their reliability has been excellent. Both Honda teams are doing better than both Ferrari teams. Red Bull is doing better now than it did with Renault a few years ago.

kube-system 6y ago

> After pulling out of F1, Honda has announced that they're going to be an engine supplier for Indycar. Honda has been a supplier for engines in Indycar for decades

davewritescode 6y ago
You're correct, but as far as I knew they hadn't committed to building a new engine for the hybrid rules coming in 2023. As of yesterday, they had committed long term. Thanks for pointing it out, I'm not an indycar fan and I just saw the announcement that they were building a new hybrid. The point still stands, Honda isn't leaving F1 to focus on green tech, it's leaving because they're burning money and not seeing any return.
- kube-system 6y ago
  >Honda isn't leaving F1 to focus on green tech, it's leaving because they're burning money and not seeing any return. Really, both are technically true. But you'd be a pretty bad PR representative if you phrased your announcement to emphasize the latter.
animal_spirits 6y ago
Yes, Honda is not trying to hide that they are switching resources from F1 to Indycar behind some greenwashing. They've been in Indy for a while now and I genuinely believe that they want to pull resources for carbon free tech
jacobr1 6y ago
Right, but it limits the virtue signaling of their stated reason for leaving F1. If leaving F1 was just about the environment, then they should limit their involvement with all ICE focused organizations. That said, Honda is a big conglomerate and it looks like this was the decision of one division and not the whole parent company. So I don't think they actually were being disingenuous in practice.
- WorldMaker 6y ago
  If anything it continues to show how out of touch Honda America is with its parent company and siblings. Comparing Honda America's website and Honda Corporate/JP/CN/EU websites shows increasingly divergent values and interests. This is not something unique to Honda right now either: Nissan America also looks like an entirely different company to the rest of the Nissan Group. At one point Ghosn was trying to rebrand Nissan America as Datsun (again) and jettison the whole thing from the Nissan Group as a ticking time bomb of backwards detritus (deeply focused on a lucrative past of large energy inefficient vehicles with little brand recognition for energy efficiency). Obviously, that plan probably went out the window with Ghosn's whole weird situation, but Ghosn probably wasn't wrong in that Honda America and Nissan America at this point are liabilities/anchors weighing down their parent companies and where their parent companies now see the future of the industry. Unfortunately, Honda America and Nissan America currently still are profitable enough that they can afford to continue to ignore their parent companies and not start turning the ship in the right direction.
  - kube-system 6y ago
    Or, alternatively, does it show how Honda's (and Nissan's) parent companies are out of touch with the American buyer? American buyers don't hate energy efficiency -- look at the comparative success of Toyota hybrids in the US. Most of the tech that Nissan and Honda of Japan developed for energy efficiency wasn't engineered for powering the types of vehicles that Americans want to buy. The same goes for Mitsubishi too. Americans aren't going to spend ~$40,000 for a minimalistic sub-compact or microcar.
    - 6y ago

knute 6y ago

Also because the F1 audience is strongly concentrated in Europe, where Honda's market share is miniscule. Contrasted with Indycar, which is US-based, where Honda has a much larger presence.

logicOnly 6y ago
Interesting to hear about a major international company reducing their investments in Europe. "European pessimism" is this weird common knowledge about the decline of Europe. It's been written about in I, Robot. There is population decline but their GDP numbers look on-par with the United States. It's the major/minor events rather than numbers that seem to push this mindset of inevitable decline. Is it bad government policy? Or culture?
- piva00 6y ago
  I think you are reading too much into this, Honda is just not as big in Europe as they are in the US, investment in F1 is a major investment for any car company, even more manufacturing engines that won't translate to their future engineering advancements in consumer products so it's a matter of investment in technology vs brand awareness/exposure, which for Honda in Europe doesn't make sense. To extrapolate that to a decline of Europe in terms of "European pessimism" is... Quite a leap. Even more as there is no definition of what "decline" you are meaning here, if it's for green technology I can definitely tell there isn't a decline in Europe, if it's cultural that is a much bigger topic (and much fuzzier) to talk about.
  - nihonde 6y ago
    I think you’re right. Honda isn’t even very popular in Japan. Distant second place behind Toyota, I think. Their mindshare here seems even less. When I lived in America, Honda was much more of a trusted brand there. Detroit went after them hard via the Takata defect, so I’m not sure about now.
    - olyjohn 6y ago

aloukissas 6y ago

Yup, right on. Mercedes Petronas has been destroying everyone.

anjc 6y ago

F1 isn't Indycar. The headline doesn't mentioned Indycar.

olyjohn 6y ago

How are they not successful? Red Bull racing is #2 in the constructors points this season. Their reliability has been excellent. Both Honda teams are doing better than both Ferrari teams. Red Bull is doing better now than it did with Renault a few years ago.