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Having been through this whole cycle I can certainly symphatize with the author. Everything he sees wrong with academia is correct. Sadly, after a few honeymoo

Having been through this whole cycle I can certainly symphatize with the author. Everything he sees wrong with academia is correct. Sadly, after a few honeymoon years he will discover almost the exact same problems with industry. Sure, it will not be about papers, but about useless client projects, spinng bad tech choices because of commitments, making your boss/company save face when things fail, spending massive amounts of time on proposals andreporting that will never be read by anyone. Insane administration practices. Pointless HR 'events' in evenings and weekends that chip away team morale... Thruth: we tend to run from one pigsty to the next, because the grass looks greener, only to realize it was towards the same shit we left behind until we tire of running. I would advise in hindsight not running, but grabbing a shovel and cleaning a small corner of the barn.

yodsanklai 6y ago
> because the grass looks greener I also left academia to work for a company. I agree it's not all black and white. But one important thing to take into account is salary. I earn now twice as much. I'm not materialistic but it makes a big difference. It's something I didn't care about when I chose to work in academia but I'm increasingly worried about future pensions, health system and social safety net in my country. It seems to go downward and my salary as a professor wasn't enough for me to plan adequately.
- ajsnigrutin 6y ago
  Meh... even if you disregard the second half of your post, if you have a shitty job A or a shitty job B, it's still better to have a shitty job that pays 2x the money than the other one. Plus, in industry, if you're good, you can always go higher, earn more, move to other industries, and earn even more. In academia, you can pretty much just choose the (almost) same job in a different institution, which probably pays nearly the same salary (especially in europe... even if you change countries, in the developed ones, pay (adjusted to cost of living) is nearly the same everywhere).
  - iorrus 6y ago
    Very important point, academia is zero sum in a way that industry isn’t, however if you’ve got tenure you’re one of the winners.
- rusticpenn 6y ago
  I left academia to work for a company. I am not on a "rolling" 3 year contract anymore. I get paid more. Getting a professorship was nearly impossible.
  - rightbyte 6y ago
    A rolling 3 year contract renewed each year would be a huge improvement compared to the constant nagging feeling of being throwed out anytime the contracts end. I worked as a research engineer for 2 years at an uni but since I was not full time employee for real I left. They would have needed way more full time engineers than zero. You can't run serious labs with grad students or short term engineers. The churn is way to big when you work on a per project basis. The advantage state officials usually have is a safe paycheck with worse pay but unis offer the same numbers on it without the safety ...
- collyw 6y ago
  In Europe (he was in France, no?) I would expect a professor to earn something similar to a senior engineer.
  - yodsanklai 6y ago
    No, a junior researcher / assistant professor would earn about 2000 euros per month. After 10-15 years, they can expect 3000 euros but it'll stop there unless they get a full professor position (which are hard to get). I'd say a qualified engineer should be able to earn twice as much.
    - collyw 6y ago
      I find that hard to believe as I got more than that working as a technician ten years ago in an academic institute in Spain, and it isn't well paid here.
      - yodsanklai 6y ago
        https://sgenplus.cfdt.fr/article/remunerations-et-grilles-indiciaires-des-ec/ https://sgenplus.cfdt.fr/article/remunerations-et-grilles-in... Sorry, it's in French: starting salary for an assistant professor 1727.49 euros. It's similar for a CNRS/INRIA researcher. In practice it's a little higher. After about 15 years, you'll get 3000 euros. Many people get stuck there but it's possible to get a full professor / director of research position.
collyw 6y ago
> Sadly, after a few honeymoon years he will discover almost the exact same problems with industry. Pretty much what I was thinking. I am in demand just now, but my job hasn't been inspiring for years, its just keeping other peoples crappy code running rather than anything creative any more. My theory with industry is that if a company has been around long enough to be making money, chances are their codebase will be a mess.
BrandonM 6y ago
I've been in industry for 12 years now, and none of your second paragraph rings true for me. "Useless client projects" and "boss/company save face when things fail" sound like they might describe some kind of consultancy? Evening/weekend HR events sound like a terrible HR team—if anyone should know the importance of being inclusive of parents and others with external commitments, it should be HR. You recommend not running, but if you're not in a position to change some of these core practices, moving to a better situation may be the best option. I think one huge quality-of-life factor is working on a team with strong technical leadership. That could be a tech-led company, or it could be an in-house engineering team at any company where the team's director has clout outside the engineering team, generally based on a history of delivering value to the broader org.
- PeterStuer 6y ago
  You probably work for a non-huge software product company or on an in-house team? In Europe the VAST majority of 'industry' is bespoke B2B projects/engagement shops. I can assure you all the 'terrible' things described above are very much standard across that segment.
  - BrandonM 6y ago
    I would imagine so. But you generalized a universally bad bespoke software industry experience to say, “after a few honeymoon years he will discover almost the exact same problems with industry.” The OP didn’t even get that kind of job: he’s a malware researcher at CISCO Talos. You then said, “the grass looks greener, only to realize it was towards the same shit we left behind.” My whole point was that the grass is greener than you described in different parts of the industry than bespoke software. In other words, it sounds like we’re mostly in agreement, but I chose to get out of bespoke work. You seem to be advising to suck it up and sweep the barn floor.

yodsanklai 6y ago

> because the grass looks greener I also left academia to work for a company. I agree it's not all black and white. But one important thing to take into account is salary. I earn now twice as much. I'm not materialistic but it makes a big difference. It's something I didn't care about when I chose to work in academia but I'm increasingly worried about future pensions, health system and social safety net in my country. It seems to go downward and my salary as a professor wasn't enough for me to plan adequately.

ajsnigrutin 6y ago
Meh... even if you disregard the second half of your post, if you have a shitty job A or a shitty job B, it's still better to have a shitty job that pays 2x the money than the other one. Plus, in industry, if you're good, you can always go higher, earn more, move to other industries, and earn even more. In academia, you can pretty much just choose the (almost) same job in a different institution, which probably pays nearly the same salary (especially in europe... even if you change countries, in the developed ones, pay (adjusted to cost of living) is nearly the same everywhere).
- iorrus 6y ago
  Very important point, academia is zero sum in a way that industry isn’t, however if you’ve got tenure you’re one of the winners.
rusticpenn 6y ago
I left academia to work for a company. I am not on a "rolling" 3 year contract anymore. I get paid more. Getting a professorship was nearly impossible.
- rightbyte 6y ago
  A rolling 3 year contract renewed each year would be a huge improvement compared to the constant nagging feeling of being throwed out anytime the contracts end. I worked as a research engineer for 2 years at an uni but since I was not full time employee for real I left. They would have needed way more full time engineers than zero. You can't run serious labs with grad students or short term engineers. The churn is way to big when you work on a per project basis. The advantage state officials usually have is a safe paycheck with worse pay but unis offer the same numbers on it without the safety ...
collyw 6y ago
In Europe (he was in France, no?) I would expect a professor to earn something similar to a senior engineer.
- yodsanklai 6y ago
  No, a junior researcher / assistant professor would earn about 2000 euros per month. After 10-15 years, they can expect 3000 euros but it'll stop there unless they get a full professor position (which are hard to get). I'd say a qualified engineer should be able to earn twice as much.
  - collyw 6y ago
    I find that hard to believe as I got more than that working as a technician ten years ago in an academic institute in Spain, and it isn't well paid here.
    - yodsanklai 6y ago
      https://sgenplus.cfdt.fr/article/remunerations-et-grilles-indiciaires-des-ec/ https://sgenplus.cfdt.fr/article/remunerations-et-grilles-in... Sorry, it's in French: starting salary for an assistant professor 1727.49 euros. It's similar for a CNRS/INRIA researcher. In practice it's a little higher. After about 15 years, you'll get 3000 euros. Many people get stuck there but it's possible to get a full professor / director of research position.

collyw 6y ago

> Sadly, after a few honeymoon years he will discover almost the exact same problems with industry. Pretty much what I was thinking. I am in demand just now, but my job hasn't been inspiring for years, its just keeping other peoples crappy code running rather than anything creative any more. My theory with industry is that if a company has been around long enough to be making money, chances are their codebase will be a mess.

BrandonM 6y ago

I've been in industry for 12 years now, and none of your second paragraph rings true for me. "Useless client projects" and "boss/company save face when things fail" sound like they might describe some kind of consultancy? Evening/weekend HR events sound like a terrible HR team—if anyone should know the importance of being inclusive of parents and others with external commitments, it should be HR. You recommend not running, but if you're not in a position to change some of these core practices, moving to a better situation may be the best option. I think one huge quality-of-life factor is working on a team with strong technical leadership. That could be a tech-led company, or it could be an in-house engineering team at any company where the team's director has clout outside the engineering team, generally based on a history of delivering value to the broader org.

PeterStuer 6y ago
You probably work for a non-huge software product company or on an in-house team? In Europe the VAST majority of 'industry' is bespoke B2B projects/engagement shops. I can assure you all the 'terrible' things described above are very much standard across that segment.
- BrandonM 6y ago
  I would imagine so. But you generalized a universally bad bespoke software industry experience to say, “after a few honeymoon years he will discover almost the exact same problems with industry.” The OP didn’t even get that kind of job: he’s a malware researcher at CISCO Talos. You then said, “the grass looks greener, only to realize it was towards the same shit we left behind.” My whole point was that the grass is greener than you described in different parts of the industry than bespoke software. In other words, it sounds like we’re mostly in agreement, but I chose to get out of bespoke work. You seem to be advising to suck it up and sweep the barn floor.