4 ms·

>UK is trying hard not to be a part of Europe it seems In what sense?

stephenhuey 6y ago
Brexit, perhaps?
jlokier 6y ago
Brexit. It's not just an amicable separation of bureaucracies. If you're in the UK (as I am), the kinds of headlines coming up regularly make it really clear the UK government is trying to not be part of Europe in all sorts of bizarre ways. For example the most recent big deal was the UK has formally decided to break international law by reneging on the UK-EU withdrawal treaty it signed up to less than a year ago. That's a very unusual thing for the UK to do, and it has people up in arms because it means the UK will now not be taken as seriously when it makes future international commitments (including trade deals), and when it is finger-pointing to other nation-states breaking their international commitments in future. It's keener than ever to trash human rights and civil rights enshrined into EU law and show that it wants to take them away from people in the UK, which is a curious turnaround because at one time the UK was a leading champion, drafting the legislation and putting them into place. It is all very tribal and symbolic, and doesn't appear to be rooted in any kind of advantages for the UK or people and businesses within the UK. Costs to businesses are going up (new tariffs on import and export). Trade deals are defaulting to worse terms (there's no good trade deal with the EU). Cooperation on major scientific projects is breaking down. Financial institutions are starting to move headquarters out of London. UK citizens living abroad are losing rights (a UK passport is much less useful than it used to be), and the cost of travel for UK citzens is going up (need more visas, need to pay for medical treatment, can't retire in the EU any more, if you already did you may have to move back and be poor). What it does appear to be rooted in is the UK Brexit leaders being able to see "we did it, as you can see we are visibly not part of Europe any more".
- garbagetime 6y ago
  The European Union is a political and economic union. Europe is a continent. It seems strange to refer to wanting to leave the European Union as wanting to leave Europe. Of course, I'm sure those who support the European Union are generally also very much in favour of it being treated as synonymous with Europe. But it sounds like nothing short of absurd rhetoric to me.
  - jlokier 6y ago
    "Europe" is how it's often described in the UK. There's a long history of using "Europe" in news or political writing to refer to the continent (excluding the UK), and also to the various political and administrative entities such as the European Union, EEC, EC, ECHR, ECJ, etc. Also referring to "Europeans" as people in those countries. Much as, say, "China" is use to refer to the political entity that is the Chinese government rather than the geopgraphy, and "America" is used to refer to the USA government, not the continent. The way language is used, with "Europe" in the UK usually taken to mean "that landmass on the other side of the English Channel to the East of the UK, not us", might be a reason why a lot of people in the UK have such cognitive dissonance over it that most don't recognise they had "EU Citizenship", including some great citizenship rights, which they will now lose at the end of this year. Because for many, "EU Citizen" conjures up images from other countries to the East, immigrants by definition it they are in the UK. Yet in reality all UK citizens have been EU citizens for decades. Ireland is also in Europe and the EU yet people don't think of Ireland when thinking about "Europe", and sometimes not even when thinking of the EU, although the last few years of politics have raised the profile of the EU Irish border issues. If you're thinking it's absurd rhetoric, fair enough, but you would be mistaken to think it's just language of those who support the EU, within the UK. It has a long history.
    - garbagetime 6y ago
      Only 27 out of 44 countries in Europe are part of the union. Governmentally speaking, Europe and the EU are not at all synonymous. >Much as, say, "China" is use to refer to the political entity that is the Chinese government rather than the geopgraphy, That's not at all a fair comparison. China is country, not a continent, and thus is pretty much defined as being the area under control of the PRC (and other Chinese regimes). Europe, being a continent, remains (in all relevant senses) constant in size, regardless of what happens to the European Union. >and "America" is used to refer to the USA government, not the continent. That's absurd rhetoric, too. I don't refer to the USA as America (well, sometimes I do, but I try not to). Besides, it would be strange to talk about California leaving America. One would say California left the USA.
alkonaut 6y ago
Not least the legal system (Common law) feels quite foreign to me. Labor laws are more US-like. Just two examples.
PeterisP 6y ago
It seems that whenever there's a substantial difference in practices between continental Europe and USA, it seems that the UK practice is somewhere in between but closer to USA than the rest of the Europe.

Brexit, perhaps?

Brexit. It's not just an amicable separation of bureaucracies. If you're in the UK (as I am), the kinds of headlines coming up regularly make it really clear the UK government is trying to not be part of Europe in all sorts of bizarre ways. For example the most recent big deal was the UK has formally decided to break international law by reneging on the UK-EU withdrawal treaty it signed up to less than a year ago. That's a very unusual thing for the UK to do, and it has people up in arms because it means the UK will now not be taken as seriously when it makes future international commitments (including trade deals), and when it is finger-pointing to other nation-states breaking their international commitments in future. It's keener than ever to trash human rights and civil rights enshrined into EU law and show that it wants to take them away from people in the UK, which is a curious turnaround because at one time the UK was a leading champion, drafting the legislation and putting them into place. It is all very tribal and symbolic, and doesn't appear to be rooted in any kind of advantages for the UK or people and businesses within the UK. Costs to businesses are going up (new tariffs on import and export). Trade deals are defaulting to worse terms (there's no good trade deal with the EU). Cooperation on major scientific projects is breaking down. Financial institutions are starting to move headquarters out of London. UK citizens living abroad are losing rights (a UK passport is much less useful than it used to be), and the cost of travel for UK citzens is going up (need more visas, need to pay for medical treatment, can't retire in the EU any more, if you already did you may have to move back and be poor). What it does appear to be rooted in is the UK Brexit leaders being able to see "we did it, as you can see we are visibly not part of Europe any more".

garbagetime 6y ago
The European Union is a political and economic union. Europe is a continent. It seems strange to refer to wanting to leave the European Union as wanting to leave Europe. Of course, I'm sure those who support the European Union are generally also very much in favour of it being treated as synonymous with Europe. But it sounds like nothing short of absurd rhetoric to me.
- jlokier 6y ago
  "Europe" is how it's often described in the UK. There's a long history of using "Europe" in news or political writing to refer to the continent (excluding the UK), and also to the various political and administrative entities such as the European Union, EEC, EC, ECHR, ECJ, etc. Also referring to "Europeans" as people in those countries. Much as, say, "China" is use to refer to the political entity that is the Chinese government rather than the geopgraphy, and "America" is used to refer to the USA government, not the continent. The way language is used, with "Europe" in the UK usually taken to mean "that landmass on the other side of the English Channel to the East of the UK, not us", might be a reason why a lot of people in the UK have such cognitive dissonance over it that most don't recognise they had "EU Citizenship", including some great citizenship rights, which they will now lose at the end of this year. Because for many, "EU Citizen" conjures up images from other countries to the East, immigrants by definition it they are in the UK. Yet in reality all UK citizens have been EU citizens for decades. Ireland is also in Europe and the EU yet people don't think of Ireland when thinking about "Europe", and sometimes not even when thinking of the EU, although the last few years of politics have raised the profile of the EU Irish border issues. If you're thinking it's absurd rhetoric, fair enough, but you would be mistaken to think it's just language of those who support the EU, within the UK. It has a long history.
  - garbagetime 6y ago
    Only 27 out of 44 countries in Europe are part of the union. Governmentally speaking, Europe and the EU are not at all synonymous. >Much as, say, "China" is use to refer to the political entity that is the Chinese government rather than the geopgraphy, That's not at all a fair comparison. China is country, not a continent, and thus is pretty much defined as being the area under control of the PRC (and other Chinese regimes). Europe, being a continent, remains (in all relevant senses) constant in size, regardless of what happens to the European Union. >and "America" is used to refer to the USA government, not the continent. That's absurd rhetoric, too. I don't refer to the USA as America (well, sometimes I do, but I try not to). Besides, it would be strange to talk about California leaving America. One would say California left the USA.

alkonaut 6y ago

Not least the legal system (Common law) feels quite foreign to me. Labor laws are more US-like. Just two examples.

PeterisP 6y ago

It seems that whenever there's a substantial difference in practices between continental Europe and USA, it seems that the UK practice is somewhere in between but closer to USA than the rest of the Europe.