4 ms·

Get ready for a lawsuit if you build iOS app interoperability

squarefoot 6y ago
Could Apple do that? The project is distributed under GPL3.0 which allows for commercial use, but apart from that they're not using it in any way that could be detrimental to Apple's business.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jagged-chisel 6y ago
  I think the insinuation is that in order to run iOS apps, one would necessarily need to infringe on Apple's copyrights. But that's not necessary. There is open source code at the base of macOS and iOS, and it's only that being used currently. Even to go further and create a full clone of iOS would be fine, if (and only if) a "clean room" implementation were made.
  - aidenn0 6y ago
    There is recent precedent that APIs are copyrightable.
    - jagged-chisel 6y ago
      But that doesn't indicate automatic infringement if used. The current decision in Oracle vs. Google says Google's implementation of Oracle's copyrighted Java APIs is fair use. Oracle is appealing, so maybe that will change, but the point is "copyrightable" still comes with "fair use."
    - wtallis 6y ago
      As I understand it, it's not a binding precedent yet. The Federal Circuit ruled in Oracle's favor on that question and the Supreme Court denied certiorari, but the Federal Circuit wasn't really supposed to be hearing a copyright question to begin with. They're the appeals court for patents, and on other issues tied up in a patent case they are only supposed to follow local circuit precedent (Ninth Circuit, in this case). So until the Supreme Court grants certiorari on this case or another case with the same question comes before a local circuit, there can't be any binding precedent on this matter that would apply to new cases outside Oracle v Google.
      - athms 6y ago
        >the Supreme Court denied certiorari They denied the original appeal over copyrightable APIs. There was a second trial over Google's fair use argument and the jury ruled for Google. Oracle appealed and the Federal Circuit ruled against Google again. That decision was appealed to SCOTUS on January 24, 2019. Google's petition challenged both decisions by the Federal Circuit: APIs are copyrightable and Google's use of the Java API wasn't fair use. Certiorari was granted November 15, 2019 and arguments were planned for October 7, 2020.
- mewse-hn 6y ago
  Apple are currently suing the people behind Corellium, an iOS emulator.
  - kmeisthax 6y ago
    Corellium is a low-level iPhone emulator, which is furthermore only provided as a cloud service with Apple's code built-in. They're infringing on Apple's code in so many places that I'm pretty much convinced no lawyers were in the room when they were developing this. Traditionally emulators are distributed without any infringing code; it's up to the user to extract what they want to emulate from devices they own. For example, 3DS emulators don't ship with a copy of Nintendo's system software, they instead require you to buy a 3DS, hack it, and use some GodMode9 scripts to extract the relevant files. Similarly, one could have developed an iPhone emulator that requires the user buy and jailbreak a phone, and dump the relevant OS files (or extract it from an IPSW available from Apple, etc). This would have most likely been legal. Projects like Darling are a step removed from even that. Instead of providing a tool that lets the user run Apple's OS in emulation, you instead write your own OS that provides all of the relevant APIs/ABIs necessary to allow software dependent on Apple's OS to run. This tool can then be distributed entirely freely with zero Apple ownership involved. This approach is entirely legal, at least for another week or two, depending on if the Supreme Court understands what an "API" is better than the Federal Circuit.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  Even if they couldn't, I'm sure they'd try.
- 29athrowaway 6y ago
  Licenses and patents are different things.
uzero 6y ago
Exactly. Also, be careful if you have a fruit as a logo.

Could Apple do that? The project is distributed under GPL3.0 which allows for commercial use, but apart from that they're not using it in any way that could be detrimental to Apple's business.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jagged-chisel 6y ago
I think the insinuation is that in order to run iOS apps, one would necessarily need to infringe on Apple's copyrights. But that's not necessary. There is open source code at the base of macOS and iOS, and it's only that being used currently. Even to go further and create a full clone of iOS would be fine, if (and only if) a "clean room" implementation were made.
- aidenn0 6y ago
  There is recent precedent that APIs are copyrightable.
  - jagged-chisel 6y ago
    But that doesn't indicate automatic infringement if used. The current decision in Oracle vs. Google says Google's implementation of Oracle's copyrighted Java APIs is fair use. Oracle is appealing, so maybe that will change, but the point is "copyrightable" still comes with "fair use."
  - wtallis 6y ago
    As I understand it, it's not a binding precedent yet. The Federal Circuit ruled in Oracle's favor on that question and the Supreme Court denied certiorari, but the Federal Circuit wasn't really supposed to be hearing a copyright question to begin with. They're the appeals court for patents, and on other issues tied up in a patent case they are only supposed to follow local circuit precedent (Ninth Circuit, in this case). So until the Supreme Court grants certiorari on this case or another case with the same question comes before a local circuit, there can't be any binding precedent on this matter that would apply to new cases outside Oracle v Google.
    - athms 6y ago
      >the Supreme Court denied certiorari They denied the original appeal over copyrightable APIs. There was a second trial over Google's fair use argument and the jury ruled for Google. Oracle appealed and the Federal Circuit ruled against Google again. That decision was appealed to SCOTUS on January 24, 2019. Google's petition challenged both decisions by the Federal Circuit: APIs are copyrightable and Google's use of the Java API wasn't fair use. Certiorari was granted November 15, 2019 and arguments were planned for October 7, 2020.
mewse-hn 6y ago
Apple are currently suing the people behind Corellium, an iOS emulator.
- kmeisthax 6y ago
  Corellium is a low-level iPhone emulator, which is furthermore only provided as a cloud service with Apple's code built-in. They're infringing on Apple's code in so many places that I'm pretty much convinced no lawyers were in the room when they were developing this. Traditionally emulators are distributed without any infringing code; it's up to the user to extract what they want to emulate from devices they own. For example, 3DS emulators don't ship with a copy of Nintendo's system software, they instead require you to buy a 3DS, hack it, and use some GodMode9 scripts to extract the relevant files. Similarly, one could have developed an iPhone emulator that requires the user buy and jailbreak a phone, and dump the relevant OS files (or extract it from an IPSW available from Apple, etc). This would have most likely been legal. Projects like Darling are a step removed from even that. Instead of providing a tool that lets the user run Apple's OS in emulation, you instead write your own OS that provides all of the relevant APIs/ABIs necessary to allow software dependent on Apple's OS to run. This tool can then be distributed entirely freely with zero Apple ownership involved. This approach is entirely legal, at least for another week or two, depending on if the Supreme Court understands what an "API" is better than the Federal Circuit.
mhh__ 6y ago
Even if they couldn't, I'm sure they'd try.
29athrowaway 6y ago
Licenses and patents are different things.

uzero 6y ago

Exactly. Also, be careful if you have a fruit as a logo.