4 ms·

> And we continue to have roads and sewers and so forth. Crumbling ones that don't receive all of the needed maintenance, yes. Potholes for miles, yes. Rail th

by ebg13 6y ago

> And we continue to have roads and sewers and so forth. Crumbling ones that don't receive all of the needed maintenance, yes. Potholes for miles, yes. Rail that breaks down daily, yes. Water systems that are one bad rain away from poisoning everyone or flooding a million people out of their homes, yes. > They can't point to one city or town and say this city is no more because they couldn't afford their infrastructure. Literally every city I look at can't afford upkeep on its infrastructure. They sidestep this by just not paying for all of the needed maintenance and only ever dealing with the worst emergencies using state and federal emergency grants. That's very much not the same thing as everything being peachy. > In that time we haven't really seen any municipality go bankrupt Only half of states even allow municipal bankruptcy by law, and _many_ cities require more money to come in from outside than they are able to generate themselves.

treis 6y ago
>Crumbling ones that don't receive all of the needed maintenance, yes. Potholes for miles, yes. Rail that breaks down daily, yes. Water systems that are one bad rain away from poisoning everyone or flooding a million people out of their homes, yes. Show me potholes for miles in Lafayette, LA. Show me all the people poisoned there from heavy rains. Or all those people flooded out of their houses. >Literally every city I look at can't afford upkeep on its infrastructure. They sidestep this by just not paying for all of the needed maintenance and only ever dealing with the worst emergencies. That's very much not the same thing as everything being peachy. Pick one and let's break it down.
- novok 6y ago
  Let's do Berkeley, CA, a very wealth city by most measures with really bad roads. Or most of California for that matter, where PG&E can't even bother to do maintenance properly on +100 year old transmission towers and cause wildfires. Or the san bruno gas explosion which was another case of cheaping out on the maintenance.
  - edoceo 6y ago
    https://hoodline.com/2016/12/why-sf-oakland-have-america-s-worst-maintained-streets https://hoodline.com/2016/12/why-sf-oakland-have-america-s-w... Why SF and Oakland have bad streets (2016) Edit: remove that AMP bullshit
  - frankharv 6y ago
    I think the California Public Utilities Commission deserves some of the blame here. They dictate the rates and profit margins. https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/Another-villain-in-the-PG-E-tale-California-13560014.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/Anothe...
    - novok 6y ago
      Most utilities and governments are very intertwined.
- ebg13 6y ago
  > Show me potholes for miles in Lafayette, LA. All you have to do is look. https://tripnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/LA_Transportation_by_the_Numbers_TRIP_Report_October_2019.pdf https://tripnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/LA_Transporta... 53% of Lafayette roads are in "poor condition". 19% more are "mediocre". 12% of bridges are structurally deficient. https://thecurrentla.com/2020/if-we-want-to-fix-lafayettes-roads-we-must-stop-building-new-ones/ https://thecurrentla.com/2020/if-we-want-to-fix-lafayettes-r... https://www.theadvocate.com/acadiana/news/article_430cb640-ea07-11e9-a974-37f5e1fd5c7d.html https://www.theadvocate.com/acadiana/news/article_430cb640-e... > Show me all the people poisoned there from heavy rains. https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/09/01/around-600000-are-without-clean-water-in-louisiana-after-hurricane-laura-some-will-go-without-for-weeks/#78a94e351dab https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/09/01/arou... > Or all those people flooded out of their houses. Really? Have you ever seen Louisiana? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Louisiana_floods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Louisiana_floods > Pick one and let's break it down. We just did.
  - treis 6y ago
    >All you have to do is look. >https://tripnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/LA_Transporta https://tripnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/LA_Transporta... >53% of Lafayette roads are in "poor condition". 12% of Lafayette bridges are structurally deficient. >https://thecurrentla.com/2020/if-we-want-to-fix-lafayettes-r https://thecurrentla.com/2020/if-we-want-to-fix-lafayettes-r... Setting aside how you didn't show "potholes for miles", your own cite proves my point. The entire backlog of road projects is 90 million dollars which is ~15% of the annual budget. That's not a sum that is going to bankrupt the city. >https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/09/01/arou https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/09/01/arou... A category 4 hurricane impacting water quality for some weeks is not evidence of poor infrastructure. I don't understand how you can make an argument like that in good faith. >Really? Have you ever seen Louisiana? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Louisiana_floods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Louisiana_floods A storm that dropped 32 inches of water, three times as much as Katrina, causing flooding is not evidence of poor infrastructure. I don't understand how you can make an argument like that in good faith.
- CaptArmchair 6y ago
  > Show me potholes for miles in Lafayette, LA This is a 2019 study. For Lafayette, the numbers read: the yearly cost of bad roads for the average motorist is $2.133. The pavement conditions of 53% of the roads are described as 'poor' and an additional 19% as 'mediocre'. [1] https://tripnet.org/reports/louisiana-baton-rouge-transportation-by-the-numbers-trip-news-release-10-08-2019/ https://tripnet.org/reports/louisiana-baton-rouge-transporta... [2] https://tripnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/LA_Transportation_by_the_Numbers_TRIP_Report_October_2019.pdf https://tripnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/LA_Transporta... > The pavement data in this report, which is for all arterial and collector roads and highways, is provided by the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA), based on data submitted annually by the Louisiana Department of Transportation & Development on the condition of major state and locally maintained roads and highways. Pavement data for Interstate highways and other principal arterials is collected for all system mileage, whereas pavement data for minor arterial and all collector roads and highways is based on sampling portions of roadways as prescribed by FHWA to insure the data collected is adequate to provide an accurate assessment of pavement conditions on these roads and highways. So, yeah, potholes. There's also research for plenty of other areas. Which isn't surprising since this organisation has been doing this for the past 50 years. > Founded in 1971, TRIP is a private nonprofit organization that researches, evaluates and distributes economic and technical data on surface transportation issues. TRIP promotes transportation policies that help relieve traffic congestion and its impact on air quality, improve road and bridge conditions, make surface travel safer, and enhance economic productivity. TRIP is sponsored by insurance companies, equipment manufacturers, distributors, and suppliers, businesses involved in highway and transit engineering and construction, labor unions, and organizations concerned with an efficient and safe surface transportation network that promotes economic development and quality of life. [3] https://tripnet.org/about-trip/ https://tripnet.org/about-trip/ > Or all those people flooded out of their houses. I'll pick the 2016 Louisiana flooding as an example. 146.000 homes damaged, 11.000 people ended taking refuge in shelters. [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Louisiana_floods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Louisiana_floods > Pick one and let's break it down. Okay. The story surrounding the 2016 floods is more complex then simply "needs more maintenance". You're looking at a flooding prone area where housing development ballooned in a few short years. So, what happened? As always, a combination of factors and the dilution of responsibility across many actors. This ranges from the population not having flooding insurance, over private contractors cutting corners, to building permits being issued based on outdated information and so on and so on. Even so, engineering infrastructure at scale requires a different approach which can't be implemented on a municipal level. And even then, infrastructure isn't a silver bullet. You need a layered approach across administrative levels which requires cooperation, continuity and forward thinking strategies. Which is a tall order when economic and political circumstances aren't favourable. [5] https://eu.theadvertiser.com/story/news/2016/09/23/did-flood-reveal-drainage-problems-south-lafayette-parish/90129456/ https://eu.theadvertiser.com/story/news/2016/09/23/did-flood...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

by ebg13 6y ago

treis 6y ago

>Crumbling ones that don't receive all of the needed maintenance, yes. Potholes for miles, yes. Rail that breaks down daily, yes. Water systems that are one bad rain away from poisoning everyone or flooding a million people out of their homes, yes. Show me potholes for miles in Lafayette, LA. Show me all the people poisoned there from heavy rains. Or all those people flooded out of their houses. >Literally every city I look at can't afford upkeep on its infrastructure. They sidestep this by just not paying for all of the needed maintenance and only ever dealing with the worst emergencies. That's very much not the same thing as everything being peachy. Pick one and let's break it down.

novok 6y ago
Let's do Berkeley, CA, a very wealth city by most measures with really bad roads. Or most of California for that matter, where PG&E can't even bother to do maintenance properly on +100 year old transmission towers and cause wildfires. Or the san bruno gas explosion which was another case of cheaping out on the maintenance.
- edoceo 6y ago
  https://hoodline.com/2016/12/why-sf-oakland-have-america-s-worst-maintained-streets https://hoodline.com/2016/12/why-sf-oakland-have-america-s-w... Why SF and Oakland have bad streets (2016) Edit: remove that AMP bullshit
- frankharv 6y ago
  I think the California Public Utilities Commission deserves some of the blame here. They dictate the rates and profit margins. https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/Another-villain-in-the-PG-E-tale-California-13560014.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/Anothe...
  - novok 6y ago
    Most utilities and governments are very intertwined.
ebg13 6y ago
> Show me potholes for miles in Lafayette, LA. All you have to do is look. https://tripnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/LA_Transportation_by_the_Numbers_TRIP_Report_October_2019.pdf https://tripnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/LA_Transporta... 53% of Lafayette roads are in "poor condition". 19% more are "mediocre". 12% of bridges are structurally deficient. https://thecurrentla.com/2020/if-we-want-to-fix-lafayettes-roads-we-must-stop-building-new-ones/ https://thecurrentla.com/2020/if-we-want-to-fix-lafayettes-r... https://www.theadvocate.com/acadiana/news/article_430cb640-ea07-11e9-a974-37f5e1fd5c7d.html https://www.theadvocate.com/acadiana/news/article_430cb640-e... > Show me all the people poisoned there from heavy rains. https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/09/01/around-600000-are-without-clean-water-in-louisiana-after-hurricane-laura-some-will-go-without-for-weeks/#78a94e351dab https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/09/01/arou... > Or all those people flooded out of their houses. Really? Have you ever seen Louisiana? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Louisiana_floods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Louisiana_floods > Pick one and let's break it down. We just did.
- treis 6y ago
  >All you have to do is look. >https://tripnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/LA_Transporta https://tripnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/LA_Transporta... >53% of Lafayette roads are in "poor condition". 12% of Lafayette bridges are structurally deficient. >https://thecurrentla.com/2020/if-we-want-to-fix-lafayettes-r https://thecurrentla.com/2020/if-we-want-to-fix-lafayettes-r... Setting aside how you didn't show "potholes for miles", your own cite proves my point. The entire backlog of road projects is 90 million dollars which is ~15% of the annual budget. That's not a sum that is going to bankrupt the city. >https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/09/01/arou https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/09/01/arou... A category 4 hurricane impacting water quality for some weeks is not evidence of poor infrastructure. I don't understand how you can make an argument like that in good faith. >Really? Have you ever seen Louisiana? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Louisiana_floods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Louisiana_floods A storm that dropped 32 inches of water, three times as much as Katrina, causing flooding is not evidence of poor infrastructure. I don't understand how you can make an argument like that in good faith.
CaptArmchair 6y ago
> Show me potholes for miles in Lafayette, LA This is a 2019 study. For Lafayette, the numbers read: the yearly cost of bad roads for the average motorist is $2.133. The pavement conditions of 53% of the roads are described as 'poor' and an additional 19% as 'mediocre'. [1] https://tripnet.org/reports/louisiana-baton-rouge-transportation-by-the-numbers-trip-news-release-10-08-2019/ https://tripnet.org/reports/louisiana-baton-rouge-transporta... [2] https://tripnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/LA_Transportation_by_the_Numbers_TRIP_Report_October_2019.pdf https://tripnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/LA_Transporta... > The pavement data in this report, which is for all arterial and collector roads and highways, is provided by the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA), based on data submitted annually by the Louisiana Department of Transportation & Development on the condition of major state and locally maintained roads and highways. Pavement data for Interstate highways and other principal arterials is collected for all system mileage, whereas pavement data for minor arterial and all collector roads and highways is based on sampling portions of roadways as prescribed by FHWA to insure the data collected is adequate to provide an accurate assessment of pavement conditions on these roads and highways. So, yeah, potholes. There's also research for plenty of other areas. Which isn't surprising since this organisation has been doing this for the past 50 years. > Founded in 1971, TRIP is a private nonprofit organization that researches, evaluates and distributes economic and technical data on surface transportation issues. TRIP promotes transportation policies that help relieve traffic congestion and its impact on air quality, improve road and bridge conditions, make surface travel safer, and enhance economic productivity. TRIP is sponsored by insurance companies, equipment manufacturers, distributors, and suppliers, businesses involved in highway and transit engineering and construction, labor unions, and organizations concerned with an efficient and safe surface transportation network that promotes economic development and quality of life. [3] https://tripnet.org/about-trip/ https://tripnet.org/about-trip/ > Or all those people flooded out of their houses. I'll pick the 2016 Louisiana flooding as an example. 146.000 homes damaged, 11.000 people ended taking refuge in shelters. [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Louisiana_floods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Louisiana_floods > Pick one and let's break it down. Okay. The story surrounding the 2016 floods is more complex then simply "needs more maintenance". You're looking at a flooding prone area where housing development ballooned in a few short years. So, what happened? As always, a combination of factors and the dilution of responsibility across many actors. This ranges from the population not having flooding insurance, over private contractors cutting corners, to building permits being issued based on outdated information and so on and so on. Even so, engineering infrastructure at scale requires a different approach which can't be implemented on a municipal level. And even then, infrastructure isn't a silver bullet. You need a layered approach across administrative levels which requires cooperation, continuity and forward thinking strategies. Which is a tall order when economic and political circumstances aren't favourable. [5] https://eu.theadvertiser.com/story/news/2016/09/23/did-flood-reveal-drainage-problems-south-lafayette-parish/90129456/ https://eu.theadvertiser.com/story/news/2016/09/23/did-flood...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]