7 ms·

In my experience, it's because people in the middle of nowhere are allowed to vote on infrastructure projects. They claim they don't want "their tax dollars" to

In my experience, it's because people in the middle of nowhere are allowed to vote on infrastructure projects. They claim they don't want "their tax dollars" to pay for "them city slickers." The important bit they conveniently leave out is that cities majorly subsidize rural living through taxes.

dominotw 6y ago
Not sure if that explains potholes all over chicago.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Freezing temperatures, salt, snow plow usage, heavy vehicles and more road usage, and inability to fix properly due to heavy road usage would explain that.
  - oneplane 6y ago
    Does work in other countries with similar specs, so it's hardly a technical limitation. It's money, public money, and therefore politics.
    - daniellarusso 6y ago
      I do wonder about US roads. Is it a reliance on the oil industry to build asphalt based roads? Are they intentionally not meant to last? Also, with regards to the US interstate system - why is it designed in such a way that any maintenance required a dramatic decrease in travel throughput? Could it be designed to be functional in ‘maintenance’ mode?
      - novok 6y ago
        America tends to like to do the cheaper thing and get the biggest number. Extra large pizzas made mostly with cheap vegetable oil and bread, lots of square feet with the cheapest drywall, materials and bad design, etc. Maintenance mode capable roads I would guess would cost as much as a road with one more lane, so they just build another lane instead of keeping one in reserve.
      - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        You either need to stop asking questions in bad faith or spend 10min reading about road construction on Wikipedia (hopefully the latter but this is the internet so...). The US doesn't really do things much differently than anywhere of similar climate with regard to road construction since climate dictates construction techniques. Asphalt is pretty universal.
- omosubi 6y ago
  Is Chicago really that much worse than other similar cities like milwaukee or minneapolis? whenever I go to those (which, to be honest, isn't often) the streets don't seem _that_ much better.
  - lakeWater 6y ago
    In Milwaukee there just isn’t enough tax dollars to pay to fix the roads, replace lead pipes, upkeep for museums, parks, police, fire etc. Some of this is pension problems, so of it is likely government spending more than they had in the 50s for large public projects that now need complete rebuilds with no funds to do so.
    - xyzzyz 6y ago
      Infrastructure spending in Milwaukee is $70M/year, when fire department is $120M/year and police is $300M/year. That's where the real costs are, not where Strong Towns say they are.
      - cbozeman 6y ago
        This entire article and every comment can be summed up with the following sentence: "Women need to have more babies because our entire economic model is built on growth and doesn't function without it and one of the best ways to grow is increase the population so you increase the taxable base." You can slice it up however you want. You can bitch and moan about feminism if you're a woman, you can bitch and moan about men's rights if you're a man, but the bottom line is we need a lot more people to pay for all the tab we've run up.
      - lakeWater 6y ago
        I think the overall Strong Towns message doesn’t only speak about infrastructure. It’s generally an argument against spending large amounts of money today on projects that benefit the town of the future that will of course never stop growing; or that this fancy, expensive new project will stimulate the growth we need to pay for it later. Milwaukee in the 50s and 60s is an example of this. They built a lot of amenities and expanded infrastructure with public funds. The growth stopped or reversed and there is no money to maintain the same level of services and amenities today. Thus underfunded parks, roads, pipes and museums. Aka, not a strong town but one struggling along.
cscurmudgeon 6y ago
There is also rampant corruption (at least for cities in CA). https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/SF-corruption-scandal-widens-Two-business-15576435.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/SF-corruption-scan... https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/editorials/article/Editorial-A-wave-of-investigations-may-reveal-15414196.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/editorials/article/Edito... https://www.kqed.org/news/11839531/report-corrupt-sf-official-directed-nonprofit-to-pay-60k-to-organizations-under-fbi-investigation https://www.kqed.org/news/11839531/report-corrupt-sf-officia... https://la.curbed.com/2020/6/18/21279345/los-angeles-corruption-jose-huizar-fbi https://la.curbed.com/2020/6/18/21279345/los-angeles-corrupt...
trynumber9 6y ago
It's my understanding that relatively few people live out in the boondocks. Is that an incorrect understanding? In a democratic system, how could such a small population be at fault for preventing infrastructure spending in population centers?
- murgindrag 6y ago
  Electoral college. Boondock states get two senators each. Urban states get two senators each. California's 40 million people have the same representation in the senate as Wyoming's 580 thousand people.
  - mitch3x3 6y ago
    Thats true for the senate, but that’s why there is another branch that has proportionate representation. Both of them have important individual roles that the other branch would/could not do, due to political barriers.
  - trynumber9 6y ago
    The Senate is required to approve city's road maintenance expenditures? I thought the US was more decentralized than that.
    - murgindrag 6y ago
      A lot of the discussion is about federal taxes and subsidies. The federal government funds a lot of local stuff too. It maintains a lot of control over cities and states through funding. For example, if your roads and schools don't meet federal standards, that's okay, but you're not getting federal funding. Everyone opts for federal funding.
    - daniellarusso 6y ago
      This is what keeps the federal government and federal politicians so powerful, most areas need federal funds to keep up with these expenses.
pnw_hazor 6y ago
Local and State elections in the US are usually overwhelming dominated by larger cities and counties. There is local representation but in many states legislative districts are allocated by population not geography so often areas with higher population density have more control. And, State-wide elections, such as, Governor, Attorney General, state supreme court justices (where elected, such as, WA), initiatives, referendums, and so on, are often dominated by the high population centers.

dominotw 6y ago

Not sure if that explains potholes all over chicago.

lotsofpulp 6y ago
Freezing temperatures, salt, snow plow usage, heavy vehicles and more road usage, and inability to fix properly due to heavy road usage would explain that.
- oneplane 6y ago
  Does work in other countries with similar specs, so it's hardly a technical limitation. It's money, public money, and therefore politics.
  - daniellarusso 6y ago
    I do wonder about US roads. Is it a reliance on the oil industry to build asphalt based roads? Are they intentionally not meant to last? Also, with regards to the US interstate system - why is it designed in such a way that any maintenance required a dramatic decrease in travel throughput? Could it be designed to be functional in ‘maintenance’ mode?
    - novok 6y ago
      America tends to like to do the cheaper thing and get the biggest number. Extra large pizzas made mostly with cheap vegetable oil and bread, lots of square feet with the cheapest drywall, materials and bad design, etc. Maintenance mode capable roads I would guess would cost as much as a road with one more lane, so they just build another lane instead of keeping one in reserve.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      You either need to stop asking questions in bad faith or spend 10min reading about road construction on Wikipedia (hopefully the latter but this is the internet so...). The US doesn't really do things much differently than anywhere of similar climate with regard to road construction since climate dictates construction techniques. Asphalt is pretty universal.
omosubi 6y ago
Is Chicago really that much worse than other similar cities like milwaukee or minneapolis? whenever I go to those (which, to be honest, isn't often) the streets don't seem _that_ much better.
- lakeWater 6y ago
  In Milwaukee there just isn’t enough tax dollars to pay to fix the roads, replace lead pipes, upkeep for museums, parks, police, fire etc. Some of this is pension problems, so of it is likely government spending more than they had in the 50s for large public projects that now need complete rebuilds with no funds to do so.
  - xyzzyz 6y ago
    Infrastructure spending in Milwaukee is $70M/year, when fire department is $120M/year and police is $300M/year. That's where the real costs are, not where Strong Towns say they are.
    - cbozeman 6y ago
      This entire article and every comment can be summed up with the following sentence: "Women need to have more babies because our entire economic model is built on growth and doesn't function without it and one of the best ways to grow is increase the population so you increase the taxable base." You can slice it up however you want. You can bitch and moan about feminism if you're a woman, you can bitch and moan about men's rights if you're a man, but the bottom line is we need a lot more people to pay for all the tab we've run up.
    - lakeWater 6y ago
      I think the overall Strong Towns message doesn’t only speak about infrastructure. It’s generally an argument against spending large amounts of money today on projects that benefit the town of the future that will of course never stop growing; or that this fancy, expensive new project will stimulate the growth we need to pay for it later. Milwaukee in the 50s and 60s is an example of this. They built a lot of amenities and expanded infrastructure with public funds. The growth stopped or reversed and there is no money to maintain the same level of services and amenities today. Thus underfunded parks, roads, pipes and museums. Aka, not a strong town but one struggling along.

cscurmudgeon 6y ago

There is also rampant corruption (at least for cities in CA). https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/SF-corruption-scandal-widens-Two-business-15576435.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/SF-corruption-scan... https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/editorials/article/Editorial-A-wave-of-investigations-may-reveal-15414196.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/editorials/article/Edito... https://www.kqed.org/news/11839531/report-corrupt-sf-official-directed-nonprofit-to-pay-60k-to-organizations-under-fbi-investigation https://www.kqed.org/news/11839531/report-corrupt-sf-officia... https://la.curbed.com/2020/6/18/21279345/los-angeles-corruption-jose-huizar-fbi https://la.curbed.com/2020/6/18/21279345/los-angeles-corrupt...

trynumber9 6y ago

It's my understanding that relatively few people live out in the boondocks. Is that an incorrect understanding? In a democratic system, how could such a small population be at fault for preventing infrastructure spending in population centers?

murgindrag 6y ago
Electoral college. Boondock states get two senators each. Urban states get two senators each. California's 40 million people have the same representation in the senate as Wyoming's 580 thousand people.
- mitch3x3 6y ago
  Thats true for the senate, but that’s why there is another branch that has proportionate representation. Both of them have important individual roles that the other branch would/could not do, due to political barriers.
- trynumber9 6y ago
  The Senate is required to approve city's road maintenance expenditures? I thought the US was more decentralized than that.
  - murgindrag 6y ago
    A lot of the discussion is about federal taxes and subsidies. The federal government funds a lot of local stuff too. It maintains a lot of control over cities and states through funding. For example, if your roads and schools don't meet federal standards, that's okay, but you're not getting federal funding. Everyone opts for federal funding.
  - daniellarusso 6y ago
    This is what keeps the federal government and federal politicians so powerful, most areas need federal funds to keep up with these expenses.

pnw_hazor 6y ago

Local and State elections in the US are usually overwhelming dominated by larger cities and counties. There is local representation but in many states legislative districts are allocated by population not geography so often areas with higher population density have more control. And, State-wide elections, such as, Governor, Attorney General, state supreme court justices (where elected, such as, WA), initiatives, referendums, and so on, are often dominated by the high population centers.