6 ms·

Private contractors aren't a solution to the problem; that's orthogonal. Lots of work goes to private contractors here, with the same results.

mdifrgechd 6y ago
Procurement is one of the root causes, specifically running the procurement out of a government bureaucracy where the actual tactical outcomes (refurbishing the train station in the example above) are way down the list from other priorities such as the appearance of fairness in procurement, and other government aims like job creation etc.
- pnw_hazor 6y ago
  In the US, it common for local or federal RFP's (requests for proposals) to include a hard requirement that qualified vendors have done the same kind of project before. This usually excludes any new players from the game. How many companies build large bridges, airports, subways, railroads, tunnels, etc? Not many. It is part of the racket that discourages innovation.
  - mdifrgechd 6y ago
    Yeah, that is one facet of the overall institutional approach to procurement that treats everything like a commodity that can be perfectly substituted and comes down just to cost (and maybe a few other checkbox categories). A flexible approach that procures for outcomes but doesn't prescribe how to get there is much better at admitting creative delivery solutions, including those from new entrants. Of course past experience is still a logical thing to consider when judging the overall risks of a project. But if you look for creative solutions you can get away from "look, this entrenched legacy business is the only one meeting out experience requirements".
AnthonyMouse 6y ago
The interesting comparison being to private contractors working for private entities. I somehow doubt that Walmart is spending years and tens of millions of dollars to re-tile one of their storefronts. Which proves that it can be done, when there isn't an incentive for corruption and waste. The question is how to remove the corruption and waste.
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  You're right, Walmart isn't doing that. Part of the reason is that Walmart has essentially zero interest in building civic infrastructure. They have to just pass health & safety regulations and then they plan to do absolutely nothing more. Public buildings and infrastructure, on the other hand, have other considerations in play. Durability, civic pride, long term safety ... I travel around the US a lot and always marvel at the stuff that was built by/during the WPA. It is incredible - absurdly overbuilt by any current standards, but that very fact is at the heart of why they are still standing, still enjoyed, still viable. Nobody will be saying that about any Walmart building in 90 years.
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    The WPA overbuilt everything because its underlying purpose was to reduce unemployment, even if it meant inefficient allocation of labor, because the alternative (massive unemployment) was considered even worse. That entire system has since been discredited, because there is no actual need to allocate the labor inefficiently on purpose to reduce unemployment instead of still being as efficient as possible and just e.g. increasing the number or projects. Or even better, stimulating demand for labor by giving money directly to the general population. But the problem in this case isn't high unemployment, it's high inefficiency. A program designed to reduce unemployment by increasing inefficiency is obviously not a solution for that.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
      I wasn't discussing the employment side of WPA in any way. I was talking about what they built and comparing it to contemporary big box store architecture. You're making an implicit claim that the labor was used inefficiently, which may be true. But unless that takes longevity and less easily measured attributes into account, I'm not sure you can prove that.
      - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        It's straightforward to compare the net present value of overbuilt boondoggles to modern commercial architecture which trades dramatically lower initial construction costs for modestly higher ongoing maintenance. The reason private entities overwhelmingly choose the latter is not that they prefer to waste their own money. Moreover, longevity is often a cost. How many overbuilt old post offices and municipal buildings are we now effectively stuck with in places where they're no longer an appropriate size for the locality? The city's needs are going to be different in twenty or thirty years than they are now, so there is no point in designing ordinary structures to last longer than that when it so often makes more sense to build a new one after that period of time consistent with the needs of today rather than a generation ago.
pnw_hazor 6y ago
Prevailing wage laws that are used in many areas. (added: private contractors must pay them if working in the government constructions projects) https://secure.lni.wa.gov/wagelookup/ApprenticeWageLookup.aspx https://secure.lni.wa.gov/wagelookup/ApprenticeWageLookup.as...

mdifrgechd 6y ago

Procurement is one of the root causes, specifically running the procurement out of a government bureaucracy where the actual tactical outcomes (refurbishing the train station in the example above) are way down the list from other priorities such as the appearance of fairness in procurement, and other government aims like job creation etc.

pnw_hazor 6y ago
In the US, it common for local or federal RFP's (requests for proposals) to include a hard requirement that qualified vendors have done the same kind of project before. This usually excludes any new players from the game. How many companies build large bridges, airports, subways, railroads, tunnels, etc? Not many. It is part of the racket that discourages innovation.
- mdifrgechd 6y ago
  Yeah, that is one facet of the overall institutional approach to procurement that treats everything like a commodity that can be perfectly substituted and comes down just to cost (and maybe a few other checkbox categories). A flexible approach that procures for outcomes but doesn't prescribe how to get there is much better at admitting creative delivery solutions, including those from new entrants. Of course past experience is still a logical thing to consider when judging the overall risks of a project. But if you look for creative solutions you can get away from "look, this entrenched legacy business is the only one meeting out experience requirements".

AnthonyMouse 6y ago

The interesting comparison being to private contractors working for private entities. I somehow doubt that Walmart is spending years and tens of millions of dollars to re-tile one of their storefronts. Which proves that it can be done, when there isn't an incentive for corruption and waste. The question is how to remove the corruption and waste.

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
You're right, Walmart isn't doing that. Part of the reason is that Walmart has essentially zero interest in building civic infrastructure. They have to just pass health & safety regulations and then they plan to do absolutely nothing more. Public buildings and infrastructure, on the other hand, have other considerations in play. Durability, civic pride, long term safety ... I travel around the US a lot and always marvel at the stuff that was built by/during the WPA. It is incredible - absurdly overbuilt by any current standards, but that very fact is at the heart of why they are still standing, still enjoyed, still viable. Nobody will be saying that about any Walmart building in 90 years.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  The WPA overbuilt everything because its underlying purpose was to reduce unemployment, even if it meant inefficient allocation of labor, because the alternative (massive unemployment) was considered even worse. That entire system has since been discredited, because there is no actual need to allocate the labor inefficiently on purpose to reduce unemployment instead of still being as efficient as possible and just e.g. increasing the number or projects. Or even better, stimulating demand for labor by giving money directly to the general population. But the problem in this case isn't high unemployment, it's high inefficiency. A program designed to reduce unemployment by increasing inefficiency is obviously not a solution for that.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
    I wasn't discussing the employment side of WPA in any way. I was talking about what they built and comparing it to contemporary big box store architecture. You're making an implicit claim that the labor was used inefficiently, which may be true. But unless that takes longevity and less easily measured attributes into account, I'm not sure you can prove that.
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      It's straightforward to compare the net present value of overbuilt boondoggles to modern commercial architecture which trades dramatically lower initial construction costs for modestly higher ongoing maintenance. The reason private entities overwhelmingly choose the latter is not that they prefer to waste their own money. Moreover, longevity is often a cost. How many overbuilt old post offices and municipal buildings are we now effectively stuck with in places where they're no longer an appropriate size for the locality? The city's needs are going to be different in twenty or thirty years than they are now, so there is no point in designing ordinary structures to last longer than that when it so often makes more sense to build a new one after that period of time consistent with the needs of today rather than a generation ago.

pnw_hazor 6y ago

Prevailing wage laws that are used in many areas. (added: private contractors must pay them if working in the government constructions projects) https://secure.lni.wa.gov/wagelookup/ApprenticeWageLookup.aspx https://secure.lni.wa.gov/wagelookup/ApprenticeWageLookup.as...