5 ms·

Since Global West "more" has delivered destruction of the biosphere, I'll also long for contemplative humanity not colonial.

sushshshsh 6y ago
I think I also prefer the docile society of technological backwardness, sitting on rocks in the warm equatorial sun and eating algae, none the wiser to the possibilities sitting around me involving smelting and electricity :) But the comment above us is probably right, it would seem that the iguanas have been "doing nothing" for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands or millions of years. Meanwhile humans have "accomplished a lot" in the past 10,000 years lets say, at the expense of many many many other things.
cal5k 6y ago
Ah yes, the idea of the noble savage. Back when Zimbabwe was still Rhodesia, in addition to fighting the Mugabe-lead rebels the Rhodesian military had to routinely step in to stop rival tribes from slaughtering each other. The default state of humanity is tribal warfare, not some beautiful Eden-esque utopia. "Colonialism" wasn't the cause, this is just humanity. I don't know why people are so keen to deny this. Nature is brutal and yet still beautiful, and I don't see why humanity should consider itself to be special in that regard.
- WD-42 6y ago
  Sorry, you can’t compare warring factions in an already war torn and exploited country to the normal behavior of humanity.
  - gearhart 6y ago
    Talking about the normal behaviour of humanity is like talking about the normal outcome of addition. It depends entirely on the inputs.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    Who taught the first human tribe engaging in warfare the idea? Who taught chimps? Who taught all the other species that fight over resources?
  - Turing_Machine 6y ago
    Can you give us an example of a country that wasn't war torn and exploited at some point in its history?
    - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
      If you go back far enough, you get this: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/new-study-of-prehistoric-skeletons-undermines-claim-that-war-has-deep-evolutionary-roots/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/new-study-o...
- throw51319 6y ago
  Yup, a huge fallacy used to push an agenda of "how it really was!" Yes - the world was peaceful until the big bad West came into play. Very bad people! Lol. The reality is as you lay above. Constantly clashes for resources and land, just as the lives of wild animals are in the present. Even just watching the birds eating from a limitless supply of seeds this morning, they were fighting and establishing an order.
- danans 6y ago
  > The default state of humanity is tribal warfare, not some beautiful Eden-esque utopia. "Colonialism" wasn't the cause, this is just humanity. Colonialism isn't the cause, but colonialism, powered by weapons and transportation technology and the concept of manifest destiny, massively increased the scope and scale of human exploitation of other humans.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - secondcoming 6y ago
    This is an animated map of who owned what parts of Europe over the past 1000 years. Do you consider 'colonialism' to be different to any other form of human expansion done since time began? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY9P0QSxlnI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY9P0QSxlnI
    - danans 6y ago
      > This is an animated map of who owned what parts of Europe over the past 1000 years. Who said colonialism didn't happen in Europe? Scotland and Ireland were arguably where the English prototyped their methods of subjugating countries. > Do you consider 'colonialism' to be different to any other form of human expansion done since time began? Yes. Colonialism as a systematic state supported effort to subjugate other nations and overtake their resources is very different than migration, for example.
- Turing_Machine 6y ago
  Note that pretty much all of the North American megafauna were wiped out within a few thousand years of the arrival of the proto-Native Americans. The only exceptions were species that were total badasses (bears, pumas), extremely prolific (deer), or a combination of badass and prolific (wolves, bison). Also note that the pre-Contact Aztecs weren't exactly nice people. I believe it was Neal Stephenson who observed that one measure of how much the Aztecs sucked was that when the Spanish Inquisition took over, things actually became more humane.
  - sfink 6y ago
    You may be right, but s/prolific/tasty/ mostly works as well. Species can survive humans if (1) the humans can't wipe them out (badass, prolific) or (2) humans don't want to wipe them out (tasty/useful, invisible, cute).
- vagrantJin 6y ago
  Hahaha. Who stepped in to do what? I don't think you've thought this answer through mate. Anothet time mate.
  - dang 6y ago
    Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, regardless of how wrong another comment is or you feel it is. If you know more than another commenter, that's great, but in that case share some of what you know so the rest of us can learn. Responding to bad information with good information improves this place; just putting others down makes it worse. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=know%20more%20share%20learn%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

sushshshsh 6y ago

I think I also prefer the docile society of technological backwardness, sitting on rocks in the warm equatorial sun and eating algae, none the wiser to the possibilities sitting around me involving smelting and electricity :) But the comment above us is probably right, it would seem that the iguanas have been "doing nothing" for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands or millions of years. Meanwhile humans have "accomplished a lot" in the past 10,000 years lets say, at the expense of many many many other things.

cal5k 6y ago

Ah yes, the idea of the noble savage. Back when Zimbabwe was still Rhodesia, in addition to fighting the Mugabe-lead rebels the Rhodesian military had to routinely step in to stop rival tribes from slaughtering each other. The default state of humanity is tribal warfare, not some beautiful Eden-esque utopia. "Colonialism" wasn't the cause, this is just humanity. I don't know why people are so keen to deny this. Nature is brutal and yet still beautiful, and I don't see why humanity should consider itself to be special in that regard.

WD-42 6y ago
Sorry, you can’t compare warring factions in an already war torn and exploited country to the normal behavior of humanity.
- gearhart 6y ago
  Talking about the normal behaviour of humanity is like talking about the normal outcome of addition. It depends entirely on the inputs.
- luckylion 6y ago
  Who taught the first human tribe engaging in warfare the idea? Who taught chimps? Who taught all the other species that fight over resources?
- Turing_Machine 6y ago
  Can you give us an example of a country that wasn't war torn and exploited at some point in its history?
  - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
    If you go back far enough, you get this: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/new-study-of-prehistoric-skeletons-undermines-claim-that-war-has-deep-evolutionary-roots/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/new-study-o...
throw51319 6y ago
Yup, a huge fallacy used to push an agenda of "how it really was!" Yes - the world was peaceful until the big bad West came into play. Very bad people! Lol. The reality is as you lay above. Constantly clashes for resources and land, just as the lives of wild animals are in the present. Even just watching the birds eating from a limitless supply of seeds this morning, they were fighting and establishing an order.
danans 6y ago
> The default state of humanity is tribal warfare, not some beautiful Eden-esque utopia. "Colonialism" wasn't the cause, this is just humanity. Colonialism isn't the cause, but colonialism, powered by weapons and transportation technology and the concept of manifest destiny, massively increased the scope and scale of human exploitation of other humans.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- secondcoming 6y ago
  This is an animated map of who owned what parts of Europe over the past 1000 years. Do you consider 'colonialism' to be different to any other form of human expansion done since time began? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY9P0QSxlnI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY9P0QSxlnI
  - danans 6y ago
    > This is an animated map of who owned what parts of Europe over the past 1000 years. Who said colonialism didn't happen in Europe? Scotland and Ireland were arguably where the English prototyped their methods of subjugating countries. > Do you consider 'colonialism' to be different to any other form of human expansion done since time began? Yes. Colonialism as a systematic state supported effort to subjugate other nations and overtake their resources is very different than migration, for example.
Turing_Machine 6y ago
Note that pretty much all of the North American megafauna were wiped out within a few thousand years of the arrival of the proto-Native Americans. The only exceptions were species that were total badasses (bears, pumas), extremely prolific (deer), or a combination of badass and prolific (wolves, bison). Also note that the pre-Contact Aztecs weren't exactly nice people. I believe it was Neal Stephenson who observed that one measure of how much the Aztecs sucked was that when the Spanish Inquisition took over, things actually became more humane.
- sfink 6y ago
  You may be right, but s/prolific/tasty/ mostly works as well. Species can survive humans if (1) the humans can't wipe them out (badass, prolific) or (2) humans don't want to wipe them out (tasty/useful, invisible, cute).
vagrantJin 6y ago
Hahaha. Who stepped in to do what? I don't think you've thought this answer through mate. Anothet time mate.
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, regardless of how wrong another comment is or you feel it is. If you know more than another commenter, that's great, but in that case share some of what you know so the rest of us can learn. Responding to bad information with good information improves this place; just putting others down makes it worse. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=know%20more%20share%20learn%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...