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>>most industries aren't run by monopolies Mineral exploration & refining, media, technology, finance & banking, military industry, online retail... what % of

by netcan 6y ago

>>most industries aren't run by monopolies Mineral exploration & refining, media, technology, finance & banking, military industry, online retail... what % of the economy are we at with just these? Market discipline, creative destruction and such work to full effect for restaurants, hairdressers, landscaping... It's a small part of the economy, but good. Pretty unbureaucratic and efficient. Well functioning markets are great when you have them, they just aren't most of the economy. Some industries (eg FMCGs, shipping) are concentrated, but a degree of market discipline still operates. Not like hairdressing, but there is at least price competition within a limited frame. Some private industries are just impossible to pick apart from government: Health and pharmaceuticals, all government contracting, real estate, etc. Most market mechanisms don't apply here either. They certainly don't apply in "systemic" situations. It is a fact that a lot (arguably most) of the economy is very far from the market ideal that restaurants operate within. It's not totally black and white, but thinking of these issues in a 1970s frame is silly. That doesn't mean private and public are identical, but a Smithian pin factory is as bad a model for most of the economy as a local fire department.

bhupy 6y ago
> Mineral exploration & refining, media, technology, finance & banking, military industry, online retail... what % of the economy are we at with just these? Mineral exploration: https://www.manta.com/mb_35_E31F37VC_000/mineral_exploration https://www.manta.com/mb_35_E31F37VC_000/mineral_exploration Refining: https://www.mckinseyenergyinsights.com/resources/refinery-reference-desk/refining-companies/ https://www.mckinseyenergyinsights.com/resources/refinery-re... Technology: https://medium.com/@progressivepolicyinstitute/10-things-you-need-to-know-about-tech-and-antitrust-6c077bf71dc5 https://medium.com/@progressivepolicyinstitute/10-things-you... Military industry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defense_contractors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defense_contractors Finance & Banking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_banks_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_banks_in_the_U... Online retail: https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2019/12/amazons-market-share19 https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2019/12/amazons-mark... None of these are monopolies. These are all concentrated, but not monopolized. To your later point, market discipline still functions in concentrated industries. > Market discipline, creative destruction and such work to full effect for restaurants, hairdressers, landscaping... It's a small part of the economy. The vast majority of industries are either operated by many small players, or a few large players (concentration). Actual monopolies are extraordinarily rare. > Health and pharmaceuticals, all government contracting, Real Estate, etc. No market mechanism here either This is also untrue. Health & pharmaceuticals: Same story. concentration? Perhaps. Monopoly? Not by a long shot. You have major players like Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer, Merck, GSK, Amgen BV, Abbott, McKesson, etc etc. Ditto real estate: https://www.propertymanagerinsider.com/the-biggest-u-s-based-real-estate-companies/ https://www.propertymanagerinsider.com/the-biggest-u-s-based... The private sector isn't a silver bullet, and there's always a place for democracy and governments. But we have to be real about what works where, and what doesn't.
- netcan 6y ago
  By your definition, I don't think I could sneak the east india trading company as an example of a monopoly. We we speaking in a context. If we can't agree that any of these industries are monopolized... If we have to start by assuming that the market dynamics of a pin factory are at play in commercial banking... IDK where to go exactly. Besides that, the other examples I gave were explicitly of non monopolies. Market dynamics like competition, creative destruction and such are not in operation. Monopoly (extreme concentration, trusts, oligopoly, monopsony, oligopsony, captive bottlenecks... do we really have to do this or can we just use "monopoly" as shorthand like normal people?) >> we have to be real about what works where, and what doesn't. We have to be real about what is a market, in the Smithian sense is, and what isn't. Military industry is not a market. There are a few big players with most of the market. One buyer. Political dynamics are many times more important than market dynamics. Same for commercial banking, pharmaceuticals etc. In 2020 it is simply trite to look to the relative efficiency of government vs private (non-market) as the lens through which everything is seen. If we have to look through that lens, lets at least look through it honestly. Private vs Public has nothing to do with market discipline because market discipline doesn't exist for most of the economy... particularly if you measure it by market cap. Monopolism (using the term widely) is just one of the reasons, but there are others. The world is complicated and commercial banking is not subject to the same dynamics as local plumbing businesses. Pretending that they are is madness. BTW, Adam Smith would have been on my side of this debate, as would have most of the old liberals. Market ideology has gone so far that people don't even need a market to apply it to.

by netcan 6y ago

bhupy 6y ago

> Mineral exploration & refining, media, technology, finance & banking, military industry, online retail... what % of the economy are we at with just these? Mineral exploration: https://www.manta.com/mb_35_E31F37VC_000/mineral_exploration https://www.manta.com/mb_35_E31F37VC_000/mineral_exploration Refining: https://www.mckinseyenergyinsights.com/resources/refinery-reference-desk/refining-companies/ https://www.mckinseyenergyinsights.com/resources/refinery-re... Technology: https://medium.com/@progressivepolicyinstitute/10-things-you-need-to-know-about-tech-and-antitrust-6c077bf71dc5 https://medium.com/@progressivepolicyinstitute/10-things-you... Military industry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defense_contractors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defense_contractors Finance & Banking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_banks_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_banks_in_the_U... Online retail: https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2019/12/amazons-market-share19 https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2019/12/amazons-mark... None of these are monopolies. These are all concentrated, but not monopolized. To your later point, market discipline still functions in concentrated industries. > Market discipline, creative destruction and such work to full effect for restaurants, hairdressers, landscaping... It's a small part of the economy. The vast majority of industries are either operated by many small players, or a few large players (concentration). Actual monopolies are extraordinarily rare. > Health and pharmaceuticals, all government contracting, Real Estate, etc. No market mechanism here either This is also untrue. Health & pharmaceuticals: Same story. concentration? Perhaps. Monopoly? Not by a long shot. You have major players like Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer, Merck, GSK, Amgen BV, Abbott, McKesson, etc etc. Ditto real estate: https://www.propertymanagerinsider.com/the-biggest-u-s-based-real-estate-companies/ https://www.propertymanagerinsider.com/the-biggest-u-s-based... The private sector isn't a silver bullet, and there's always a place for democracy and governments. But we have to be real about what works where, and what doesn't.

netcan 6y ago
By your definition, I don't think I could sneak the east india trading company as an example of a monopoly. We we speaking in a context. If we can't agree that any of these industries are monopolized... If we have to start by assuming that the market dynamics of a pin factory are at play in commercial banking... IDK where to go exactly. Besides that, the other examples I gave were explicitly of non monopolies. Market dynamics like competition, creative destruction and such are not in operation. Monopoly (extreme concentration, trusts, oligopoly, monopsony, oligopsony, captive bottlenecks... do we really have to do this or can we just use "monopoly" as shorthand like normal people?) >> we have to be real about what works where, and what doesn't. We have to be real about what is a market, in the Smithian sense is, and what isn't. Military industry is not a market. There are a few big players with most of the market. One buyer. Political dynamics are many times more important than market dynamics. Same for commercial banking, pharmaceuticals etc. In 2020 it is simply trite to look to the relative efficiency of government vs private (non-market) as the lens through which everything is seen. If we have to look through that lens, lets at least look through it honestly. Private vs Public has nothing to do with market discipline because market discipline doesn't exist for most of the economy... particularly if you measure it by market cap. Monopolism (using the term widely) is just one of the reasons, but there are others. The world is complicated and commercial banking is not subject to the same dynamics as local plumbing businesses. Pretending that they are is madness. BTW, Adam Smith would have been on my side of this debate, as would have most of the old liberals. Market ideology has gone so far that people don't even need a market to apply it to.