5 ms·

There can't be one because 1. The ethical decisions that happen in the industry aren't made by the software engineers. 2. The boundaries around those decision

by st1x7 6y ago

There can't be one because 1. The ethical decisions that happen in the industry aren't made by the software engineers. 2. The boundaries around those decision are very grey. Can I create a feature that breaches user's privacy? What if I don't build the feature but just write documentation for it? What if I do pure research but then my research is used for a morally questionable purpose by the company? What if my company does a bunch of shady things but not my department? What if my company respects its users but mistreats its employees? What if my company treats employess and users fairly but it's in a questionable industry like gambling for example? Or what if I make a game that's perfectly fine for most players but a small number of them get addicted to the point that it ruins their lives? And so on, these questions go on forever and it's not as straightforward as "do no harm".

rewq4321 6y ago
> Can I create a feature that breaches user's privacy? What if I don't build the feature but just write documentation for it? More pertinently, most of the time: What if I think that feature would be a net-positive for everyone? There obviously cases where a product literally couldn't exist without collecting user data, and so long as they're up-front about it, I'm fine with that. It's sneaky data collection that's the problem.
codegeek 6y ago
These days a lot of doctors also cannot make independent decisions due to pressure from insurance companies, hospital board etc. Interesting to compare with software engineers.
- conductr 6y ago
  Software engineers can’t be stripped of their ability to practice. Any oath would be teethless
  - wan23 6y ago
    When you swear an oath, you're giving your word. There is such a thing as honor in this world, even in 2020.
    - briandear 6y ago
      Where would this swearing take place? Would their be a ceremony somewhere? Just curious about the logistics of such a swearing.
      - hprotagonist 6y ago
        mine was senior year of undergrad.
    - drivingmenuts 6y ago
      It’s pretty hard to hide when you’re a doctor. Not so much when you’re a software engineer and honor is a tough meal to eat when you’re out of a job.
- UnpossibleJim 6y ago
  Which would also mean that, by extension, a hippocratic oath only move the legal responsibility from the groups that make the decisions to the doctor, in a practical sense, right? Or am I missing something in the whole micro management style of thinking that is the modern medical system?
Nextgrid 6y ago
Wouldn't the first point also be applicable to the medical field? Decisions can be made by anyone but ultimately it's the practitioner's job to actually carry out those decisions and they are able to refuse.
- malux85 6y ago
  While there is a certain amount of personal responsibility in the field, often component-wise construction limits the visibility of the systems ethics as a whole, and the higher level unethical strategy is not decided by an implementer
  - alexchamberlain 6y ago
    Many would argue this occurs in the medical field too - how ethical are the insurance companies of the US or the drugs companies of just about anywhere? (That being said, research is expensive and a national health system has its downsides too.)
ianhorn 6y ago
That first point could be a case for a code of ethics, not against one. Right now decision makers tell you to build the thing, and you speak up saying that seems sketchy, but you both don’t know what the people who don’t speak up think. You are told to conform or leave. With a code of ethics, they tell you to build the thing and you say it’s against your industry’s code of ethics, and you both know that applies to everyone. They can’t tell you to change your profession’s code of ethics, so you have a stronger position.
- hprotagonist 6y ago
  >That first point could be a case for a code of ethics, not against one. It is most loudly a case for a union. But if you don't like that word, how about an AMA-like or state bar like association to which you pay dues, are subject to ethical review, and where sanction impacts your right to work? Doctors and lawyers self-regulate in this way to our great collective benefit.
- ThrowawayR2 6y ago
  Well, anyone who is a member of a professional society (ACM, IEEE, etc.) or has a professional certification (PMI's PMP certification) has already agreed to abide by their respective Codes of Ethics by virtue of being an accredited member. In theory, people can be stripped of their membership or certification if it's reported although I doubt that ever happens in practice.
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 6y ago
  One interesting thing that pops up though is the famous oracle vs google thing. Google copied the interfaces and the thing is ongoing. How can you make an oath when "copying might be fraud, but maybe not" it's a thing?
dragonwriter 6y ago
> There can't be one Effectively true, but your reasons are wrong: > The ethical decisions that happen in the industry aren't made by the software engineers. Software engineers decide whether to participate in or enable them, just like other professionals with codes of ethics that work in supporting or advisory roles for employers/clients. Other professions that do this have real codes of ethics, so this reason is BS. > The boundaries around those decision are very grey. And they aren't in law? Medicine? Again, that doesn't prevent a real code of ethics. What does prevent such a thing from meaningfully existing for software engineering is the fact that it's not a regulated profession with a professional licensing and enforcement body.
- st1x7 6y ago
  > What does prevent such a thing from meaningfully existing for software engineering is the fact that it's not a regulated profession with a professional licensing and enforcement body. You're mixing up the Hippocratic oath with actual standards and regulation on practitioners. The Hippocratic Oath is only a tradition. It just happens to overlap to some extent with the actual enforceable laws for medical malpractice.
Jenda_ 6y ago
1. However, the SW engineer is the one who actually executes the decisions, and they can refuse (and for example in cases when the decisions are illegal, they are actually required to refuse), and in extreme cases even quit the job. Ethical judgment of this of course depends on situation, for example whether they can handle the loss of income, however, at least in my country, there are lots of free job openings in IT, and switching jobs is very easy.
- st1x7 6y ago
  > at least in my country, there are lots of free job openings in IT, and switching jobs is very easy. Subtract all the companies that you can't work for due to ethical reasons and you might be surprised by how bad the job market in your country looks like.

by st1x7 6y ago

rewq4321 6y ago

> Can I create a feature that breaches user's privacy? What if I don't build the feature but just write documentation for it? More pertinently, most of the time: What if I think that feature would be a net-positive for everyone? There obviously cases where a product literally couldn't exist without collecting user data, and so long as they're up-front about it, I'm fine with that. It's sneaky data collection that's the problem.

codegeek 6y ago

These days a lot of doctors also cannot make independent decisions due to pressure from insurance companies, hospital board etc. Interesting to compare with software engineers.

conductr 6y ago
Software engineers can’t be stripped of their ability to practice. Any oath would be teethless
- wan23 6y ago
  When you swear an oath, you're giving your word. There is such a thing as honor in this world, even in 2020.
  - briandear 6y ago
    Where would this swearing take place? Would their be a ceremony somewhere? Just curious about the logistics of such a swearing.
    - hprotagonist 6y ago
      mine was senior year of undergrad.
  - drivingmenuts 6y ago
    It’s pretty hard to hide when you’re a doctor. Not so much when you’re a software engineer and honor is a tough meal to eat when you’re out of a job.
UnpossibleJim 6y ago
Which would also mean that, by extension, a hippocratic oath only move the legal responsibility from the groups that make the decisions to the doctor, in a practical sense, right? Or am I missing something in the whole micro management style of thinking that is the modern medical system?

Nextgrid 6y ago

Wouldn't the first point also be applicable to the medical field? Decisions can be made by anyone but ultimately it's the practitioner's job to actually carry out those decisions and they are able to refuse.

malux85 6y ago
While there is a certain amount of personal responsibility in the field, often component-wise construction limits the visibility of the systems ethics as a whole, and the higher level unethical strategy is not decided by an implementer
- alexchamberlain 6y ago
  Many would argue this occurs in the medical field too - how ethical are the insurance companies of the US or the drugs companies of just about anywhere? (That being said, research is expensive and a national health system has its downsides too.)

ianhorn 6y ago

That first point could be a case for a code of ethics, not against one. Right now decision makers tell you to build the thing, and you speak up saying that seems sketchy, but you both don’t know what the people who don’t speak up think. You are told to conform or leave. With a code of ethics, they tell you to build the thing and you say it’s against your industry’s code of ethics, and you both know that applies to everyone. They can’t tell you to change your profession’s code of ethics, so you have a stronger position.

hprotagonist 6y ago
>That first point could be a case for a code of ethics, not against one. It is most loudly a case for a union. But if you don't like that word, how about an AMA-like or state bar like association to which you pay dues, are subject to ethical review, and where sanction impacts your right to work? Doctors and lawyers self-regulate in this way to our great collective benefit.
ThrowawayR2 6y ago
Well, anyone who is a member of a professional society (ACM, IEEE, etc.) or has a professional certification (PMI's PMP certification) has already agreed to abide by their respective Codes of Ethics by virtue of being an accredited member. In theory, people can be stripped of their membership or certification if it's reported although I doubt that ever happens in practice.
Fire-Dragon-DoL 6y ago
One interesting thing that pops up though is the famous oracle vs google thing. Google copied the interfaces and the thing is ongoing. How can you make an oath when "copying might be fraud, but maybe not" it's a thing?

dragonwriter 6y ago

> There can't be one Effectively true, but your reasons are wrong: > The ethical decisions that happen in the industry aren't made by the software engineers. Software engineers decide whether to participate in or enable them, just like other professionals with codes of ethics that work in supporting or advisory roles for employers/clients. Other professions that do this have real codes of ethics, so this reason is BS. > The boundaries around those decision are very grey. And they aren't in law? Medicine? Again, that doesn't prevent a real code of ethics. What does prevent such a thing from meaningfully existing for software engineering is the fact that it's not a regulated profession with a professional licensing and enforcement body.

st1x7 6y ago
> What does prevent such a thing from meaningfully existing for software engineering is the fact that it's not a regulated profession with a professional licensing and enforcement body. You're mixing up the Hippocratic oath with actual standards and regulation on practitioners. The Hippocratic Oath is only a tradition. It just happens to overlap to some extent with the actual enforceable laws for medical malpractice.

Jenda_ 6y ago

1. However, the SW engineer is the one who actually executes the decisions, and they can refuse (and for example in cases when the decisions are illegal, they are actually required to refuse), and in extreme cases even quit the job. Ethical judgment of this of course depends on situation, for example whether they can handle the loss of income, however, at least in my country, there are lots of free job openings in IT, and switching jobs is very easy.

st1x7 6y ago
> at least in my country, there are lots of free job openings in IT, and switching jobs is very easy. Subtract all the companies that you can't work for due to ethical reasons and you might be surprised by how bad the job market in your country looks like.