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> My parents' farm is on a well and septic, and a dirt road. Water purification is done with a UV filter. The infrastructure costs are almost nil. How well wou

> My parents' farm is on a well and septic, and a dirt road. Water purification is done with a UV filter. The infrastructure costs are almost nil. How well would such a thing scale, though, especially in a suburban/urban setting? IIRC sceptic systems need a certain amount/type of land to drain correctly, so that wouldn't work particularly well outside of relatively rural areas. Wells might not work beyond a certain population density due to insufficient groundwater recharge rate. And dirt roads still would require maintenance, especially if you want to support nontrivial traffic levels, not to mention relatively high-speed travel.

justanotherc 6y ago
Yeah that's what I'm wondering... could decentralised water/power/sewer distribution scale? Like maybe not EVERYBODY has their own well/septic, but maybe every 5 houses or whatever share one?
- war1025 6y ago
  > Like maybe not EVERYBODY has their own well/septic, but maybe every 5 houses or whatever share one? Anecdotally, it seems fairly common for people to have municipal water and their own septic system in more "exurb-y" areas. Two of the people I work with (different states) have that setup. It seems to be common because water treatment facilities are more efficient at scale, whereas a septic is pretty easy to maintain yourself.
- yourapostasy 6y ago
  > could decentralised water/power/sewer distribution scale? Not with conventional implementations and funding, but yes, scaling is technologically feasible at this time. However in the US, getting people to learn the necessary skills and discipline to maintain such systems to the needed baseline operating standards will remain a significant challenge. Water collection and sanitation could be automated into a closed-loop system, but I've yet to see a COTS solution. Even if you commercialized it, you just move problems around: there would be a significant waste stream of filtration cartridges to handle when scaled up, for example. Cradle-to-cradle design and implementation of such systems is neither easy nor cheap. You don't need the portability of lithium chemistry batteries, so I recommend redox flow chemistries, with some kind of solid state magnetohydrodynamic pump if possible. While there are more active septic designs for smaller properties, they're much more expensive, and require more maintenance to keep running. From speaking with septic engineers and techs over the years, Americans have awful habits in general around sewer systems, and a lot of that keeps the septic industry thriving. A sustainable on-site treatment of human black water into safe compost compliant as EPA Class A biosolids would require people be much more diligent about ensuring pharmaceuticals for example, don't make it into the composting stream and instead go to incineration. Even if people do that, it gets expensive on a small scale. Or we come up with ways to automatically sample and test each individual deposit for pharmaceuticals. Which again, adds expense and more maintenance. I have no doubt we can engineer the shit out the technical problems. I don't have good solutions for the assholes who are The Reason We Can't Have Nice Things, other than isolate myself into a Dunbar Number of like-minded and build our own systems. Grids arose for a number of good reasons, and the systems design issues surrounding decoupling from them at scale are pretty thorny.
- slfnflctd 6y ago
  This sounds like a great model to try out in newly-built, 'experimental' communities. Retrofitting existing ones would require more cooperation among residents than you could achieve, I think, except in unusual situations. I am sure there are large numbers of lower income people who would be willing to try something other than a crappy apartment in a bad neighborhood if the per-month costs were similar. You'd need to deal with transportation issues (i.e. better buses, shared small electric vehicles or bikes, etcetera) and some other things, but it could be a promising method to explore. Some people might even be willing to try things like a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine-diverting_dry_toilet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine-diverting_dry_toilet (incinerating toilets may be needed instead depending on the area) or agree to lower electricity usage for a reduction in monthly fees, among other things. I've been thinking about this idea for a number of years, and am somewhat surprised we haven't seen efforts toward it yet. Maybe I should do something.
  - justanotherc 6y ago
    Yeah probably tough and expensive to transition existing neighbourhoods to this model... but is abandoning the current infrastructure and starting fresh more expensive than maintaining the already expensive existing infrastructure? Don't know. I do know London, England is build on top of many many layers of obsolete sewer systems from a millenium of city living. Sometimes its best to abandon and rebuild.
- aw1621107 6y ago
  > but maybe every 5 houses or whatever share one? The space requirements are actually a decent amount lower than I originally expected [0, 1], so it could be plausible for individual lots to have their own septic systems (unless the area above the drainfield can't be used for safety/other reasons). Not sure if there are other factors that make centralized waste treatment systems preferable over individual septic systems. [0]: https://www.washtenaw.org/1722/Sewage-System-Sizing https://www.washtenaw.org/1722/Sewage-System-Sizing [1]: https://inspectapedia.com/septic/Septic-Drainfield-Size.php https://inspectapedia.com/septic/Septic-Drainfield-Size.php
  - titanomachy 6y ago
    "Not sure if there are other factors that make centralized waste treatment systems preferable over individual septic systems" Capacity is the main thing I can think of. If you get dense enough (e.g. 8-story apartment blocks) you'd need a pretty big septic field right next to the housing. Now that's land you can't use for housing or offices. At some point it's more cost-effective to whisk that waste away to some low-value land to do the processing. I don't know at what level of density that's true, though. It could be pretty high.
    - aw1621107 6y ago
      Yeah, density was the main concern that led me to make my original comment in this thread. I was thinking of a more suburban setting when I wrote the comment you're responding to, but you do have a point (unless local zoning laws allow septic drainage fields to be used for other things, but that I know too little about). If you can't build on top of drainage fields or dual-purpose them, then you'll need to sacrifice some building space, which isn't optimal from a make-the-most-of-a-land-parcel view.
war1025 6y ago
> Wells might not work beyond a certain population density due to insufficient groundwater recharge rate. Isn't agricultural irrigation the largest source of groundwater depletion in places where it's an issue? I believe basically all water here in Iowa is pulled from groundwater wells. I've never heard of it being something anyone was worried, but we also don't irrigate fields like they do in the Western states. The main issue I hear about is people worrying about farm chemical runoff getting into the aquifers.
- justanotherc 6y ago
  I'm not a well expert, but from what I've read is that chemical runoff could get into shallow sandpoint wells, but if you drill a 200ft deep well, that water is millions of years old.
  - war1025 6y ago
    Did a quick search, and this link [1] from what appears to be a reputable source says most household wells are pulling up water that is less than 10 years old. Granted that probably varies a lot by region. I've heard of a fair number of people that have their wells go bad and need to drill deeper to get clean water. Found this page [2] that lists registered well depths here in Iowa. Seems that somewhere in the 300-400ft range is common. Deeper for municipal wells. [1] https://agwt.org/content/how-old-your-well-water https://agwt.org/content/how-old-your-well-water [2] https://www.iihr.uiowa.edu/igs/geosam/depth_map https://www.iihr.uiowa.edu/igs/geosam/depth_map
- aw1621107 6y ago
  > Isn't agricultural irrigation the largest source of groundwater depletion in places where it's an issue? > I believe basically all water here in Iowa is pulled from groundwater wells. I've never heard of it being something anyone was worried, but we also don't irrigate fields like they do in the Western states. Those are good points; I should have qualified my comment with "depending on location and local groundwater conditions". Evidently wells do work for at least some urban areas, but whether it's a viable option for all, I don't know.

justanotherc 6y ago

Yeah that's what I'm wondering... could decentralised water/power/sewer distribution scale? Like maybe not EVERYBODY has their own well/septic, but maybe every 5 houses or whatever share one?

war1025 6y ago
> Like maybe not EVERYBODY has their own well/septic, but maybe every 5 houses or whatever share one? Anecdotally, it seems fairly common for people to have municipal water and their own septic system in more "exurb-y" areas. Two of the people I work with (different states) have that setup. It seems to be common because water treatment facilities are more efficient at scale, whereas a septic is pretty easy to maintain yourself.
yourapostasy 6y ago
> could decentralised water/power/sewer distribution scale? Not with conventional implementations and funding, but yes, scaling is technologically feasible at this time. However in the US, getting people to learn the necessary skills and discipline to maintain such systems to the needed baseline operating standards will remain a significant challenge. Water collection and sanitation could be automated into a closed-loop system, but I've yet to see a COTS solution. Even if you commercialized it, you just move problems around: there would be a significant waste stream of filtration cartridges to handle when scaled up, for example. Cradle-to-cradle design and implementation of such systems is neither easy nor cheap. You don't need the portability of lithium chemistry batteries, so I recommend redox flow chemistries, with some kind of solid state magnetohydrodynamic pump if possible. While there are more active septic designs for smaller properties, they're much more expensive, and require more maintenance to keep running. From speaking with septic engineers and techs over the years, Americans have awful habits in general around sewer systems, and a lot of that keeps the septic industry thriving. A sustainable on-site treatment of human black water into safe compost compliant as EPA Class A biosolids would require people be much more diligent about ensuring pharmaceuticals for example, don't make it into the composting stream and instead go to incineration. Even if people do that, it gets expensive on a small scale. Or we come up with ways to automatically sample and test each individual deposit for pharmaceuticals. Which again, adds expense and more maintenance. I have no doubt we can engineer the shit out the technical problems. I don't have good solutions for the assholes who are The Reason We Can't Have Nice Things, other than isolate myself into a Dunbar Number of like-minded and build our own systems. Grids arose for a number of good reasons, and the systems design issues surrounding decoupling from them at scale are pretty thorny.
slfnflctd 6y ago
This sounds like a great model to try out in newly-built, 'experimental' communities. Retrofitting existing ones would require more cooperation among residents than you could achieve, I think, except in unusual situations. I am sure there are large numbers of lower income people who would be willing to try something other than a crappy apartment in a bad neighborhood if the per-month costs were similar. You'd need to deal with transportation issues (i.e. better buses, shared small electric vehicles or bikes, etcetera) and some other things, but it could be a promising method to explore. Some people might even be willing to try things like a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine-diverting_dry_toilet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine-diverting_dry_toilet (incinerating toilets may be needed instead depending on the area) or agree to lower electricity usage for a reduction in monthly fees, among other things. I've been thinking about this idea for a number of years, and am somewhat surprised we haven't seen efforts toward it yet. Maybe I should do something.
- justanotherc 6y ago
  Yeah probably tough and expensive to transition existing neighbourhoods to this model... but is abandoning the current infrastructure and starting fresh more expensive than maintaining the already expensive existing infrastructure? Don't know. I do know London, England is build on top of many many layers of obsolete sewer systems from a millenium of city living. Sometimes its best to abandon and rebuild.
aw1621107 6y ago
> but maybe every 5 houses or whatever share one? The space requirements are actually a decent amount lower than I originally expected [0, 1], so it could be plausible for individual lots to have their own septic systems (unless the area above the drainfield can't be used for safety/other reasons). Not sure if there are other factors that make centralized waste treatment systems preferable over individual septic systems. [0]: https://www.washtenaw.org/1722/Sewage-System-Sizing https://www.washtenaw.org/1722/Sewage-System-Sizing [1]: https://inspectapedia.com/septic/Septic-Drainfield-Size.php https://inspectapedia.com/septic/Septic-Drainfield-Size.php
- titanomachy 6y ago
  "Not sure if there are other factors that make centralized waste treatment systems preferable over individual septic systems" Capacity is the main thing I can think of. If you get dense enough (e.g. 8-story apartment blocks) you'd need a pretty big septic field right next to the housing. Now that's land you can't use for housing or offices. At some point it's more cost-effective to whisk that waste away to some low-value land to do the processing. I don't know at what level of density that's true, though. It could be pretty high.
  - aw1621107 6y ago
    Yeah, density was the main concern that led me to make my original comment in this thread. I was thinking of a more suburban setting when I wrote the comment you're responding to, but you do have a point (unless local zoning laws allow septic drainage fields to be used for other things, but that I know too little about). If you can't build on top of drainage fields or dual-purpose them, then you'll need to sacrifice some building space, which isn't optimal from a make-the-most-of-a-land-parcel view.

war1025 6y ago

> Wells might not work beyond a certain population density due to insufficient groundwater recharge rate. Isn't agricultural irrigation the largest source of groundwater depletion in places where it's an issue? I believe basically all water here in Iowa is pulled from groundwater wells. I've never heard of it being something anyone was worried, but we also don't irrigate fields like they do in the Western states. The main issue I hear about is people worrying about farm chemical runoff getting into the aquifers.

justanotherc 6y ago
I'm not a well expert, but from what I've read is that chemical runoff could get into shallow sandpoint wells, but if you drill a 200ft deep well, that water is millions of years old.
- war1025 6y ago
  Did a quick search, and this link [1] from what appears to be a reputable source says most household wells are pulling up water that is less than 10 years old. Granted that probably varies a lot by region. I've heard of a fair number of people that have their wells go bad and need to drill deeper to get clean water. Found this page [2] that lists registered well depths here in Iowa. Seems that somewhere in the 300-400ft range is common. Deeper for municipal wells. [1] https://agwt.org/content/how-old-your-well-water https://agwt.org/content/how-old-your-well-water [2] https://www.iihr.uiowa.edu/igs/geosam/depth_map https://www.iihr.uiowa.edu/igs/geosam/depth_map
aw1621107 6y ago
> Isn't agricultural irrigation the largest source of groundwater depletion in places where it's an issue? > I believe basically all water here in Iowa is pulled from groundwater wells. I've never heard of it being something anyone was worried, but we also don't irrigate fields like they do in the Western states. Those are good points; I should have qualified my comment with "depending on location and local groundwater conditions". Evidently wells do work for at least some urban areas, but whether it's a viable option for all, I don't know.