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You're mixing up a lot of things. Child abuse is a physical act and isn't speech. Recruitment and instructional videos are speech. Assange is speech, but, he w

You're mixing up a lot of things. Child abuse is a physical act and isn't speech. Recruitment and instructional videos are speech. Assange is speech, but, he wasn't a journalist with protections for handling secret information. Copyright used to have a limited term before it dropped in to the public domain where it would become speech. These are all different things with their own problems.

cies 6y ago
> Child abuse is a physical act and isn't speech. I say movies of such acts. That's not the act itself. See Japan where comics that show sexual abuse of "young looking individuals" are freely distributed. > These are all different things with their own problems. > You're mixing up a lot of things. No, they are all current limitations to free speech encoded in law. I mean to say (please re-read my comment) that "true free speech" already does not exist (just like "truly free markets" dont). > Recruitment and instructional videos are speech. Try massively sharing those to the wider public: I'm curious how long you stay free or your endeavors remain uninterrupted. Lol.
- pleasebegood 6y ago
  > See Japan where comics that show sexual abuse of "young looking individuals" are freely distributed. https://myanimelist.net/manga/127513/Dansei_Kyoufushou_Datta_Watashi_ga_AV_Joyuu_ni_Naru_made_no_Hanashi https://myanimelist.net/manga/127513/Dansei_Kyoufushou_Datta... A manga that depicts serious child abuse that turned the author into a porn star. It's written by herself. Maybe she shouldn't be allowed to express herself and hide it. We can all then live a happy fantasy where everyone is a good person in any depiction. My first thought when reading the manga, how can we stop this? Suffice to say, I didn't enjoy it one bit but I never thought this should be censored. There are many similar manga that depicts all sorts of stuff. Some of them written by the people which were unfortunate. It's also evident you don't care about the medium because you used the word comic. Censorship of evil acts was rampant in the history. People didn't want to admit what others were doing. There are broader issues if people are pushed to the extreme by media. Why would someone join a terrorist group after watching one of their videos? There must be something else causing the problem. The videos are a symptom, not a cause. Last, I have consumed media of both your examples. It didn't turn me into a child abuser or a terrorist. I want to help make world a safer place for children and terrorism free more than before. I want to stop it so it stops get depicted on its own.
  - cies 6y ago
    Interesting. So having a official terrorist recruitment offices in your town should be legal? (basically this is what the KKK is to me) I dont think so. > A manga that depicts serious child abuse that turned the author into a porn star. It's written by herself. I dont know if the piece was inciting violence against children. I think it does not, and if it would it'd be censored. Rightfully, imho.
    - pleasebegood 6y ago
      Incitement of violence and abuse is already illegal. I am not sure what your point is then. Your first comment paints a broad stroke. Please be more concise when talking about censoring heavy handed topics because otherwise you may be causing a chilling effect. And your example is not speech.
claudiawerner 6y ago
>Child abuse is a physical act and isn't speech. A video is a form of expression that falls under speech for all intents and purposes. There is no general caveat to freedom of speech which states that one cannot create a video of some illegal act. Child pornography seems to be the only exception in the US. Further, metaphysically, 'physical acts' such as burning flags fall under freedom of expression, and all physical actions are themselves expressive. We prohibit child abuse because it is abuse, not because it is a physical act and therefore not speech. The expression of copyrighted material, likewise, is speech. Disney is exercising its right to free speech by releasing a movie, even if that movie falls under copyright. Just as in the case of child porn, copying and/or distributing such media is a restriction on speech, albeit a widely accepted one. To me, there is no way to argue that child porn and unauthorized distribution of copyrighted material isn't a kind of speech, or at least a kind of expression. It is absolutely speech, just as sharing a video of a murder or theft is speech, and just as sharing some public domain music is speech, and it is also speech that most people agree should be restricted.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  Your point about child abuse is ridiculous. We prohibit child abuse precisely because it is a physical act. If I said "I will whip my child 50 times", and didn't do it, that would not be child abuse. It becomes child abuse once it is a physical act. You make the faulty presumption that speech itself can be a form of abuse. This is where free speech absolutists such as myself would disagree. Speech is a protected class of expression precisely for this reason: it cannot be abusive. To argue that child pornography is a form of speech is rather ridiculous, if we define speech as "the communication or expression of thoughts in spoken words". A form of expression, sure, but there are limits on forms of expression. I cannot choose to stab people as a form of free expression, nor torch a building.
  - cies 6y ago
    As said, and said agian, I mention videos of abuse (not abuse itself). I will not tell you this again if you still dot get that. > To argue that child pornography is a form of speech is rather ridiculous To lawyers it is not. Again this is about the video, not the act itself. You repeatedly dont get that difference. > but there are limits on forms of expression. I cannot choose to stab people as a form of free expression, nor torch a building. Great! you get it! We cannot allow all expression. Now on stabbing we agree. On abuse videos as well. But on inciting hate/violence we dont. May I ask why you want to defend inciting hate/violence -speech?

cies 6y ago

> Child abuse is a physical act and isn't speech. I say movies of such acts. That's not the act itself. See Japan where comics that show sexual abuse of "young looking individuals" are freely distributed. > These are all different things with their own problems. > You're mixing up a lot of things. No, they are all current limitations to free speech encoded in law. I mean to say (please re-read my comment) that "true free speech" already does not exist (just like "truly free markets" dont). > Recruitment and instructional videos are speech. Try massively sharing those to the wider public: I'm curious how long you stay free or your endeavors remain uninterrupted. Lol.

pleasebegood 6y ago
> See Japan where comics that show sexual abuse of "young looking individuals" are freely distributed. https://myanimelist.net/manga/127513/Dansei_Kyoufushou_Datta_Watashi_ga_AV_Joyuu_ni_Naru_made_no_Hanashi https://myanimelist.net/manga/127513/Dansei_Kyoufushou_Datta... A manga that depicts serious child abuse that turned the author into a porn star. It's written by herself. Maybe she shouldn't be allowed to express herself and hide it. We can all then live a happy fantasy where everyone is a good person in any depiction. My first thought when reading the manga, how can we stop this? Suffice to say, I didn't enjoy it one bit but I never thought this should be censored. There are many similar manga that depicts all sorts of stuff. Some of them written by the people which were unfortunate. It's also evident you don't care about the medium because you used the word comic. Censorship of evil acts was rampant in the history. People didn't want to admit what others were doing. There are broader issues if people are pushed to the extreme by media. Why would someone join a terrorist group after watching one of their videos? There must be something else causing the problem. The videos are a symptom, not a cause. Last, I have consumed media of both your examples. It didn't turn me into a child abuser or a terrorist. I want to help make world a safer place for children and terrorism free more than before. I want to stop it so it stops get depicted on its own.
- cies 6y ago
  Interesting. So having a official terrorist recruitment offices in your town should be legal? (basically this is what the KKK is to me) I dont think so. > A manga that depicts serious child abuse that turned the author into a porn star. It's written by herself. I dont know if the piece was inciting violence against children. I think it does not, and if it would it'd be censored. Rightfully, imho.
  - pleasebegood 6y ago
    Incitement of violence and abuse is already illegal. I am not sure what your point is then. Your first comment paints a broad stroke. Please be more concise when talking about censoring heavy handed topics because otherwise you may be causing a chilling effect. And your example is not speech.

claudiawerner 6y ago

>Child abuse is a physical act and isn't speech. A video is a form of expression that falls under speech for all intents and purposes. There is no general caveat to freedom of speech which states that one cannot create a video of some illegal act. Child pornography seems to be the only exception in the US. Further, metaphysically, 'physical acts' such as burning flags fall under freedom of expression, and all physical actions are themselves expressive. We prohibit child abuse because it is abuse, not because it is a physical act and therefore not speech. The expression of copyrighted material, likewise, is speech. Disney is exercising its right to free speech by releasing a movie, even if that movie falls under copyright. Just as in the case of child porn, copying and/or distributing such media is a restriction on speech, albeit a widely accepted one. To me, there is no way to argue that child porn and unauthorized distribution of copyrighted material isn't a kind of speech, or at least a kind of expression. It is absolutely speech, just as sharing a video of a murder or theft is speech, and just as sharing some public domain music is speech, and it is also speech that most people agree should be restricted.

sebmellen 6y ago
Your point about child abuse is ridiculous. We prohibit child abuse precisely because it is a physical act. If I said "I will whip my child 50 times", and didn't do it, that would not be child abuse. It becomes child abuse once it is a physical act. You make the faulty presumption that speech itself can be a form of abuse. This is where free speech absolutists such as myself would disagree. Speech is a protected class of expression precisely for this reason: it cannot be abusive. To argue that child pornography is a form of speech is rather ridiculous, if we define speech as "the communication or expression of thoughts in spoken words". A form of expression, sure, but there are limits on forms of expression. I cannot choose to stab people as a form of free expression, nor torch a building.
- cies 6y ago
  As said, and said agian, I mention videos of abuse (not abuse itself). I will not tell you this again if you still dot get that. > To argue that child pornography is a form of speech is rather ridiculous To lawyers it is not. Again this is about the video, not the act itself. You repeatedly dont get that difference. > but there are limits on forms of expression. I cannot choose to stab people as a form of free expression, nor torch a building. Great! you get it! We cannot allow all expression. Now on stabbing we agree. On abuse videos as well. But on inciting hate/violence we dont. May I ask why you want to defend inciting hate/violence -speech?