6 ms·

> "Europe’s spectacularly swift and successful response to the migration crisis demonstrates that mass migration can be controlled." > More white supremacist n

> "Europe’s spectacularly swift and successful response to the migration crisis demonstrates that mass migration can be controlled." > More white supremacist neo-colonial nonsense. No one [1] in Europe is happy with how this is being handled, either on the right or left. I'm guessing you're calling it "nonsense" because they call it "successful" despite no one in Europe being happy with it. But what makes it "white supremacist neo-colonial"? [1] See my reply regarding no one being happy.

tluyben2 6y ago
> no one in Europe being happy That is the real nonsense here; many people are happy with it. Just people who shout in the tabloids and right-wing and the underbelly (politicians) make it sound like everyone thinks the same way. We do not.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  I don't think anybody is truly happy. A good chunk of people I know locally are leaning left, and they were very much appalled at how the situation was handled. For better or worse, though, it reached a state at which it managed to fall off the news cycle, so people don't talk about it much anymore.
  - tluyben2 6y ago
    I'm happy about it and my friends too. So that's n(anybody) minus 20something.
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      Fair enough.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    Meh, most left-leaning folks I know are "unhappy" because they feel like Europe isn't open enough. So sure, they're "unhappy" that's like "well I won the lottery, but I wanted to win the lottery twice in a row, so now I am unhappy".
- rbecker 6y ago
  I didn't mean to imply I agreed with that. I'm sure there's plenty on the left that would like more open borders, plenty on the right that want them closed, and plenty in the middle that are fine with them as they are - I guess those would be the happy ones, so "no one in Europe being happy" isn't strictly true. But supposing it were, then the "nonsense" claim makes sense. The argument is logical, even if the facts may be disputed. I just couldn't figure out the train of logic for the "white supremacist neo-colonial" claim, no matter which facts were believed.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- Yetanfou 6y ago
  The majority in most west- and north-European countries is not 'happy with (large-scale migration from non-Western countries)', this is corroborated by many national and European polls. It certainly is not just people who shout in the tabloids and right-wing and the underbelly (politicians). Also, please, stop adding those labels like 'underbelly' and 'right-wing', it just makes you sound like a party apparatchik.
  - tluyben2 6y ago
    > Also, please, stop adding those labels like 'underbelly' and 'right-wing', Why? Those are the people who shout about this. > this is corroborated by many national and European polls Show me some? The polls I saw were ran and published in crap quality (right-wing, underbelly) newspapers and magazines with suggestive questions (something like; 'if we did not have to take in muslims, would that be better than taking them in in huge quantities? I agree/Don't Agree'). But maybe you have other ones; I would be curious what audience they asked.
    - Yetanfou 6y ago
      The Netherlands: 65% of respondents to a 2020 CBS (Central Bureau of Statistics) poll answered they wanted a reduction in the number of migrants coming to the country [1]. Sweden: 58% of respondents to a 2020 Demoskop poll want a reduction in the number of migrants coming to the country [2]. For more results just use your favourite search engine and feed it a question in the relevant language. [1] https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/2107687974/enquete-65-van-nederlanders-wil-inperking-immigratie https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/2107687974/enquete-65-van-ne... [2] http://www.dnv.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Allm%C3%A4nheten-om-invandringens-omfattning-f%C3%B6r-publicering.pdf http://www.dnv.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Allm%C3%A4nhete...
      - tluyben2 6y ago
        Telegraaf is a (underbelly) tabloid and they paid for that poll (it says in the header). Can you show the questions and the answers instead of the Telegraaf interpretation? As that means nothing at all. No mention of cbs by the way; it was done by Kantar which is a data company for hire instead of cbs which is not quite state owned but acts like it ‘quango’. I do not know about SE but demoskop seems a data company for hire as well, so who paid for this? Where are the q/a and raw data?
- Pandabob 6y ago
  The immigration debate is obviously really complex and I don't have anything sensible to add to it. That said I'm Finnish and our birth rates are falling and its not clear how they'll bounce back. The mass immigration of 2015 was not optimal, leading to reception centers being understaffed etc. But I don't see how the Nordic model keeps working with a declining population. Seems to me we're either going to scrap the welfare state, or figure out how to stop our population from declining. One key to that would be to increase immigration. AFAIK, increased immigration also elevates the birth rate of a country.
romanoderoma 6y ago
I am one who has no problem with it. "no one" is blatantly false.

tluyben2 6y ago

> no one in Europe being happy That is the real nonsense here; many people are happy with it. Just people who shout in the tabloids and right-wing and the underbelly (politicians) make it sound like everyone thinks the same way. We do not.

TeMPOraL 6y ago
I don't think anybody is truly happy. A good chunk of people I know locally are leaning left, and they were very much appalled at how the situation was handled. For better or worse, though, it reached a state at which it managed to fall off the news cycle, so people don't talk about it much anymore.
- tluyben2 6y ago
  I'm happy about it and my friends too. So that's n(anybody) minus 20something.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    Fair enough.
- luckylion 6y ago
  Meh, most left-leaning folks I know are "unhappy" because they feel like Europe isn't open enough. So sure, they're "unhappy" that's like "well I won the lottery, but I wanted to win the lottery twice in a row, so now I am unhappy".
rbecker 6y ago
I didn't mean to imply I agreed with that. I'm sure there's plenty on the left that would like more open borders, plenty on the right that want them closed, and plenty in the middle that are fine with them as they are - I guess those would be the happy ones, so "no one in Europe being happy" isn't strictly true. But supposing it were, then the "nonsense" claim makes sense. The argument is logical, even if the facts may be disputed. I just couldn't figure out the train of logic for the "white supremacist neo-colonial" claim, no matter which facts were believed.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
Yetanfou 6y ago
The majority in most west- and north-European countries is not 'happy with (large-scale migration from non-Western countries)', this is corroborated by many national and European polls. It certainly is not just people who shout in the tabloids and right-wing and the underbelly (politicians). Also, please, stop adding those labels like 'underbelly' and 'right-wing', it just makes you sound like a party apparatchik.
- tluyben2 6y ago
  > Also, please, stop adding those labels like 'underbelly' and 'right-wing', Why? Those are the people who shout about this. > this is corroborated by many national and European polls Show me some? The polls I saw were ran and published in crap quality (right-wing, underbelly) newspapers and magazines with suggestive questions (something like; 'if we did not have to take in muslims, would that be better than taking them in in huge quantities? I agree/Don't Agree'). But maybe you have other ones; I would be curious what audience they asked.
  - Yetanfou 6y ago
    The Netherlands: 65% of respondents to a 2020 CBS (Central Bureau of Statistics) poll answered they wanted a reduction in the number of migrants coming to the country [1]. Sweden: 58% of respondents to a 2020 Demoskop poll want a reduction in the number of migrants coming to the country [2]. For more results just use your favourite search engine and feed it a question in the relevant language. [1] https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/2107687974/enquete-65-van-nederlanders-wil-inperking-immigratie https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/2107687974/enquete-65-van-ne... [2] http://www.dnv.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Allm%C3%A4nheten-om-invandringens-omfattning-f%C3%B6r-publicering.pdf http://www.dnv.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Allm%C3%A4nhete...
    - tluyben2 6y ago
      Telegraaf is a (underbelly) tabloid and they paid for that poll (it says in the header). Can you show the questions and the answers instead of the Telegraaf interpretation? As that means nothing at all. No mention of cbs by the way; it was done by Kantar which is a data company for hire instead of cbs which is not quite state owned but acts like it ‘quango’. I do not know about SE but demoskop seems a data company for hire as well, so who paid for this? Where are the q/a and raw data?
Pandabob 6y ago
The immigration debate is obviously really complex and I don't have anything sensible to add to it. That said I'm Finnish and our birth rates are falling and its not clear how they'll bounce back. The mass immigration of 2015 was not optimal, leading to reception centers being understaffed etc. But I don't see how the Nordic model keeps working with a declining population. Seems to me we're either going to scrap the welfare state, or figure out how to stop our population from declining. One key to that would be to increase immigration. AFAIK, increased immigration also elevates the birth rate of a country.

romanoderoma 6y ago

I am one who has no problem with it. "no one" is blatantly false.