4 ms·

As someone who is born outside Europe and America, I would rather be born randomly in EU than in USA because of obvious reasons. US is a great place if you are

As someone who is born outside Europe and America, I would rather be born randomly in EU than in USA because of obvious reasons. US is a great place if you are born to a very affluent family. But not so great otherwise. You have much higher probablity of getting a good education if you are born in Europe than in US. US college education is unaffordable to vast majority of people. And don't even get me started on healthcare, gun violence, etc. The point of money is to have a good quality of life. And EU is doing much better job than US even without having trillion dollar tech companies. Stay like that EU!

mettamage 6y ago
> You have much higher probablity of getting a good education Getting an education for me was easy in The Netherlands. If I look at my family's finances and think about US university prices, I think it would've worked out if we'd be smart about it. But it would definitely not be easy. It'd be about as difficult as it is to do a second bachelor/master in The Netherlands (1st bachelor = 2K. 2nd bachelor = 9 to 12K, outliers on both ends are 2K and 25K, in euro's).
MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
> US is a great place if you are born to a very affluent family. But not so great otherwise. This is the common trope, and I used to believe this too. However, data shows otherwise. Comparing swedes in Sweden vs swedes in the US, the latter are doing better. US actually has a higher social mobility! Healthcare is a problem, agreed. I’m not convinced EU style giant-med-bureaucracy is the best solution to this issue, and I hope the US finds a better way. Look at youth unemployment across the EU, this is most certainly not the utopia you think it is.
- mpweiher 6y ago
  > However, data shows otherwise. Citation needed. > [Sweden] US actually has a higher social mobility! Data says otherwise, Sweden is #4, US is #27. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index > EU, this is most certainly not the utopia you think it is. Citation needed. Who has ever claimed it is a utopia?
  - MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
    This is comparing apples and oranges, considering the diversity of ethnicities in the US. This study [0] is more precise for this type of argument. "Canada has the most downward mobility while the U.S. has the least, with Sweden in the middle." Interestingly, upward mobility seems to have a much lower variance. [0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0927537114000530 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09275... > Who has ever claimed it is a utopia? Everyone who thinks the US is the evil capitalist empire inhabited by armed lunatics, while the EU is a cozy socialist fluffy-zone without drawbacks. The difference in job opportunities, economic dynamics and average income, to those people, is unexplainable. They see no contradiction to think this way while posting on HN, founded by a VC. They think the only reason one could arrive at certain political and economical opinions is to be an uncaring asshole, while the reality is that the difference stems from another view of how certain beneficial goals are accomplished. The problem is that a lot of the things that work well in practise on nation-level scale are counter-intuitive and thus unpopular, while things that sound good often have disastrous side-effects. I have seen the communist eastern europe after the fall of the iron curtain, it was a horrific sight.
- TrackerFF 6y ago
  > Comparing swedes in Sweden vs swedes in the US I'd wager that this is because the Swedes that leave Sweden for US, are probably more ambitious than many of their peers back in Sweden. And what's more, many have reaped the benefits of socialist programs in Sweden BEFORE arriving the USA. It's like with Norwegians (I'm Norwegian) that make it big in the US, and write about how fantastic the country is. When you do some research, you will of course discover that they left for the states, already with a Master's Degree in their baggage (in probably some industry experience), or studied in the US on next-to-free Norwegian student loans, having endured zero hardships in their comfy middle-class lives over here. And if they screw up, they could always return home. In this day and age, you really don't find any native Scandinavians that can just waltz into the US, without having a very good starting point / foundation.
  - MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
    Ok, lets look at the overall outcomes instead: if what you say is true, how is the higher average US income explained? It can’t all be due to comfortably emigrated EU socialists, right?
    - TrackerFF 6y ago
      Not sure about Sweden, but average monthly wage in Norway is currently 47290 NOK, or 5067 USD with current exchange rates, which comes to $60804 / year.
Aerroon 6y ago
Half of Europe is poorer than almost any state in the US. You can be born in an EU country where the average monthly income before taxes is below $800. 10 years ago it would've been half of that. Chances are that you would have a higher chance of getting a tertiary education in the US too.[0] [0] https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-education.htm https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-educat...

mettamage 6y ago

> You have much higher probablity of getting a good education Getting an education for me was easy in The Netherlands. If I look at my family's finances and think about US university prices, I think it would've worked out if we'd be smart about it. But it would definitely not be easy. It'd be about as difficult as it is to do a second bachelor/master in The Netherlands (1st bachelor = 2K. 2nd bachelor = 9 to 12K, outliers on both ends are 2K and 25K, in euro's).

MrBuddyCasino 6y ago

> US is a great place if you are born to a very affluent family. But not so great otherwise. This is the common trope, and I used to believe this too. However, data shows otherwise. Comparing swedes in Sweden vs swedes in the US, the latter are doing better. US actually has a higher social mobility! Healthcare is a problem, agreed. I’m not convinced EU style giant-med-bureaucracy is the best solution to this issue, and I hope the US finds a better way. Look at youth unemployment across the EU, this is most certainly not the utopia you think it is.

mpweiher 6y ago
> However, data shows otherwise. Citation needed. > [Sweden] US actually has a higher social mobility! Data says otherwise, Sweden is #4, US is #27. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index > EU, this is most certainly not the utopia you think it is. Citation needed. Who has ever claimed it is a utopia?
- MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
  This is comparing apples and oranges, considering the diversity of ethnicities in the US. This study [0] is more precise for this type of argument. "Canada has the most downward mobility while the U.S. has the least, with Sweden in the middle." Interestingly, upward mobility seems to have a much lower variance. [0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0927537114000530 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09275... > Who has ever claimed it is a utopia? Everyone who thinks the US is the evil capitalist empire inhabited by armed lunatics, while the EU is a cozy socialist fluffy-zone without drawbacks. The difference in job opportunities, economic dynamics and average income, to those people, is unexplainable. They see no contradiction to think this way while posting on HN, founded by a VC. They think the only reason one could arrive at certain political and economical opinions is to be an uncaring asshole, while the reality is that the difference stems from another view of how certain beneficial goals are accomplished. The problem is that a lot of the things that work well in practise on nation-level scale are counter-intuitive and thus unpopular, while things that sound good often have disastrous side-effects. I have seen the communist eastern europe after the fall of the iron curtain, it was a horrific sight.
TrackerFF 6y ago
> Comparing swedes in Sweden vs swedes in the US I'd wager that this is because the Swedes that leave Sweden for US, are probably more ambitious than many of their peers back in Sweden. And what's more, many have reaped the benefits of socialist programs in Sweden BEFORE arriving the USA. It's like with Norwegians (I'm Norwegian) that make it big in the US, and write about how fantastic the country is. When you do some research, you will of course discover that they left for the states, already with a Master's Degree in their baggage (in probably some industry experience), or studied in the US on next-to-free Norwegian student loans, having endured zero hardships in their comfy middle-class lives over here. And if they screw up, they could always return home. In this day and age, you really don't find any native Scandinavians that can just waltz into the US, without having a very good starting point / foundation.
- MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
  Ok, lets look at the overall outcomes instead: if what you say is true, how is the higher average US income explained? It can’t all be due to comfortably emigrated EU socialists, right?
  - TrackerFF 6y ago
    Not sure about Sweden, but average monthly wage in Norway is currently 47290 NOK, or 5067 USD with current exchange rates, which comes to $60804 / year.

Aerroon 6y ago

Half of Europe is poorer than almost any state in the US. You can be born in an EU country where the average monthly income before taxes is below $800. 10 years ago it would've been half of that. Chances are that you would have a higher chance of getting a tertiary education in the US too.[0] [0] https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-education.htm https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-educat...