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Is there any reason to think you wouldn’t (eventually) be able to install the Arm version of Windows on Apple silicon?

by cwhiz 6y ago

rowanG077 6y ago
Yes. You can't install anything on iPads and iPhones. And those are the closet hardware we have to to be release ARM macs. I would actually be incredibly surprises if they could run anything but Mac OS.
- chipotle_coyote 6y ago
  Counterargument: the closest hardware we currently have to ARM Macs is probably... Intel Macs. The "Apple is going to lock down the Mac just like the iPhone" narrative has been with us since, well, the iPhone. But despite the alarm at tighter security measures in more recent versions of macOS, that hasn't happened yet -- and if a Secret Nefarious Lockdown Plan (tm) was going to come to fruition, the year that they shifted CPU hardware and radically redesigned the operating system's UX would sure as heck seem to be The Perfect Moment. And it still hasn't happened. Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns and all that, but I don't think there's any reason to think Apple is going to make it any harder to run different operating systems on Apple Silicon hardware than they do on Intel hardware. (Of course, I don't think there's any reason to think they'll make it easier, either.)
  - rgbrenner 6y ago
    On Intel macs the default was that it would run windows as long as Apple did not make substantial changes to the uefi, etc. But arm macs are really an Apple A series processor plus a number of coprocessors like the t2, nueral engine, etc.. and the default is that windows will not work on this specialized hardware. So unless there’s evidence that Apple is actively going to help 3rd parties develop operating systems for the Mac, the best we can hope for is a fairly acceptable OS with reverse engineered drivers for those chips. We’re either going to get an unstable OS or a severely crippled OS. With intel macs Apple just had to stand back and let 3rd parties do their work. But they would have to actively assist with arm macs.. and there’s no indication theyve ever done that much less intend to do so in the future.
  - rowanG077 6y ago
    That's false. The ARM chips are tightly integrated SoCs. They aren't even close to a dropdown in replacement as "just" a new CPU would be. The internals of the ARM Macs will be much closer to the Ipad then to the Intel Macs. And I don't think it's a coincidence Apple is slowly but surely moving OSX towards a locked down platform. It's already made pretty hard to run normal software.
rgbrenner 6y ago
There will be an arm version of windows.. but there’s no reason to believe that Microsoft will or can support all of the coprocessors that Apple is going to add - including gpu, t2, nueral engine, etc. it isn’t like Apple plays nice with 3rd parties. I seriously doubt they’ll release the details necessary to develop independent drivers for those... whether it’s Microsoft or Linux. So there’s good reason to believe it may be macOS only. Personally I’ll believe it when I see it... because right now there are no 3rd party iPad or iPhone operating systems. So a better question is probably: what makes you think there will be 3rd party OS support?
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Microsoft is the one doing Apple Silicon contributions to OpenJDK though. Yep, curious world.
- wasdfff 6y ago
  I find it hard to believe Apple would ditch bootcamp outright. It is too useful of a feature.
- LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
  But, but... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24636166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24636166 (Apple’s T2 security chip jailbreak)
tinus_hn 6y ago
https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/24/21302213/apple-silicon-mac-arm-windows-support-boot-camp https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/24/21302213/apple-silicon-ma... “We’re not direct booting an alternate operating system,” says Craig Federighi, Apple’s senior vice president of software engineering.
- cwhiz 6y ago
  Well, there you go.
DCKing 6y ago
Yes. There is the fact that macOS on ARM does not appear to have a standardized boot method (Apple says the boot sequence is "based on iPadOS"), and there is the fact that Apple also uses their own GPU architecture for which they're only motivated to make mac/iOS drivers. Getting Windows to run on this is a pretty tall order, and without significant investment it won't happen. And significant investment from whom? Not Apple surely. I'm guessing Microsoft has more stake if anyone. At best we're going to see Windows on ARM virtual machines.
- cwhiz 6y ago
  Apple currently supports windows installs, though. They write drivers and make sure the hardware works.
  - DCKing 6y ago
    Apple has enough incentive to do it now because Windows on x86 is something people actually want/need to use. It doesn't cost much to support and probably sells a bunch of Macs. Windows on ARM is not really something people would want to use, not to the enormous extent people want to to use Windows on x86. Speaking from what people expect from a "Windows PC" - Windows on a current MacBook makes a decent Windows PC. Windows on a future MacBook makes for a very poor Windows PC that will make customers regret their purchase. Apple currently uses standard PC architecture, with identical CPUs, GPUs and Wifi chips to standard PCs, and a (sort of) standard EFI booting mechanism. With ARM Macs, it won't. Clearly Apple in its hardware design is already not invested enough to support Windows - they could use standard EFI on ARM, for example. So why would they spend a lot of money to do it in software, so people can run a "crippled" version of a competitor's OS? Note I don't actually believe Apple will actively lock this down. I do believe we will get native Linux on these things to some extent. But I do believe Apple will not lift a single finger to make alternative OSes happen on ARM Macs. Apple only cares about macOS and virtualization. I also think Windows on ARM is a great product, but I also know that common people that just want to use a Windows computer won't agree with me.

Is there any reason to think you wouldn’t (eventually) be able to install the Arm version of Windows on Apple silicon?

by cwhiz 6y ago

Is there any reason to think you wouldn’t (eventually) be able to install the Arm version of Windows on Apple silicon?

Yes. You can't install anything on iPads and iPhones. And those are the closet hardware we have to to be release ARM macs. I would actually be incredibly surprises if they could run anything but Mac OS.

chipotle_coyote 6y ago
Counterargument: the closest hardware we currently have to ARM Macs is probably... Intel Macs. The "Apple is going to lock down the Mac just like the iPhone" narrative has been with us since, well, the iPhone. But despite the alarm at tighter security measures in more recent versions of macOS, that hasn't happened yet -- and if a Secret Nefarious Lockdown Plan (tm) was going to come to fruition, the year that they shifted CPU hardware and radically redesigned the operating system's UX would sure as heck seem to be The Perfect Moment. And it still hasn't happened. Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns and all that, but I don't think there's any reason to think Apple is going to make it any harder to run different operating systems on Apple Silicon hardware than they do on Intel hardware. (Of course, I don't think there's any reason to think they'll make it easier, either.)
- rgbrenner 6y ago
  On Intel macs the default was that it would run windows as long as Apple did not make substantial changes to the uefi, etc. But arm macs are really an Apple A series processor plus a number of coprocessors like the t2, nueral engine, etc.. and the default is that windows will not work on this specialized hardware. So unless there’s evidence that Apple is actively going to help 3rd parties develop operating systems for the Mac, the best we can hope for is a fairly acceptable OS with reverse engineered drivers for those chips. We’re either going to get an unstable OS or a severely crippled OS. With intel macs Apple just had to stand back and let 3rd parties do their work. But they would have to actively assist with arm macs.. and there’s no indication theyve ever done that much less intend to do so in the future.
- rowanG077 6y ago
  That's false. The ARM chips are tightly integrated SoCs. They aren't even close to a dropdown in replacement as "just" a new CPU would be. The internals of the ARM Macs will be much closer to the Ipad then to the Intel Macs. And I don't think it's a coincidence Apple is slowly but surely moving OSX towards a locked down platform. It's already made pretty hard to run normal software.

rgbrenner 6y ago

There will be an arm version of windows.. but there’s no reason to believe that Microsoft will or can support all of the coprocessors that Apple is going to add - including gpu, t2, nueral engine, etc. it isn’t like Apple plays nice with 3rd parties. I seriously doubt they’ll release the details necessary to develop independent drivers for those... whether it’s Microsoft or Linux. So there’s good reason to believe it may be macOS only. Personally I’ll believe it when I see it... because right now there are no 3rd party iPad or iPhone operating systems. So a better question is probably: what makes you think there will be 3rd party OS support?

pjmlp 6y ago
Microsoft is the one doing Apple Silicon contributions to OpenJDK though. Yep, curious world.
wasdfff 6y ago
I find it hard to believe Apple would ditch bootcamp outright. It is too useful of a feature.
LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
But, but... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24636166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24636166 (Apple’s T2 security chip jailbreak)

tinus_hn 6y ago

https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/24/21302213/apple-silicon-mac-arm-windows-support-boot-camp https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/24/21302213/apple-silicon-ma... “We’re not direct booting an alternate operating system,” says Craig Federighi, Apple’s senior vice president of software engineering.

cwhiz 6y ago
Well, there you go.

DCKing 6y ago

Yes. There is the fact that macOS on ARM does not appear to have a standardized boot method (Apple says the boot sequence is "based on iPadOS"), and there is the fact that Apple also uses their own GPU architecture for which they're only motivated to make mac/iOS drivers. Getting Windows to run on this is a pretty tall order, and without significant investment it won't happen. And significant investment from whom? Not Apple surely. I'm guessing Microsoft has more stake if anyone. At best we're going to see Windows on ARM virtual machines.

cwhiz 6y ago
Apple currently supports windows installs, though. They write drivers and make sure the hardware works.
- DCKing 6y ago
  Apple has enough incentive to do it now because Windows on x86 is something people actually want/need to use. It doesn't cost much to support and probably sells a bunch of Macs. Windows on ARM is not really something people would want to use, not to the enormous extent people want to to use Windows on x86. Speaking from what people expect from a "Windows PC" - Windows on a current MacBook makes a decent Windows PC. Windows on a future MacBook makes for a very poor Windows PC that will make customers regret their purchase. Apple currently uses standard PC architecture, with identical CPUs, GPUs and Wifi chips to standard PCs, and a (sort of) standard EFI booting mechanism. With ARM Macs, it won't. Clearly Apple in its hardware design is already not invested enough to support Windows - they could use standard EFI on ARM, for example. So why would they spend a lot of money to do it in software, so people can run a "crippled" version of a competitor's OS? Note I don't actually believe Apple will actively lock this down. I do believe we will get native Linux on these things to some extent. But I do believe Apple will not lift a single finger to make alternative OSes happen on ARM Macs. Apple only cares about macOS and virtualization. I also think Windows on ARM is a great product, but I also know that common people that just want to use a Windows computer won't agree with me.