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I agree with much of what you have said but you appear to be lumping all policing organizations together on the basis of some recent high-profile events. Many c

I agree with much of what you have said but you appear to be lumping all policing organizations together on the basis of some recent high-profile events. Many cops work in local departments serving communities across the US and we simply do not have data on how prolific (or not) these abuses are, nor do we have data on the natural background rate of human-on-human abuses with which to compare the current level of abuses with a hypothetical alternative (such as mafia rule). This is akin to saying that all programmers are evil because of the actions of google et al.

sudosysgen 6y ago
Is there an appreciably significant number of police departments that are structurally not prone to these kinds of a abuses? And if there are, how many of them don't enable others who do? Cop!=Programmer, cops integrate into one social function while programmers integrate onto many. The correct mapping would be public employee <=> programmer, or Raytheon weapons engineer <=> Soldier, for example. It really is the social function that is core to this argument.
- kortilla 6y ago
  The issue is not the social function though, it’s flaws in some police departments. Even on the left, there are very few who actually don’t want police around serving the function of stopping crimes when they occur.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    It's not a flaw in some police department, it is a flaw in the social order that manifests itself in abuses by numerous police departments, but the seeds of that are present in essentially all of them. Expressing the violence of the state is much broader than stopping crimes when they occur.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  the coercive function in society is prone to abuse but that does not imply that all personnel engaged in the coercive function are complicit in what amounts to a criminal conspiracy. > Cop!=Programmer, cops integrate into one social function while programmers integrate onto many. The correct mapping would be public employee <=> programmer, or Raytheon weapons engineer <=> Soldier, for example. It really is the social function that is core to this argument. The social function that cops represent is the enforcement of laws and many of these laws are of a net benefit to society. it is an error to reduce the law enforcement function to brutality and expropriation when there are plenty of violent, malevolent, and larcenous individuals who are not police and still engage in socially undesirable behaviors.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    Sure, I'd agree with you, if the cops only implemented the social function of enforcement. But they don't, they implement the social function of intimidation and violence writ large, as well as the social function of taking care of people in sensitive situation. This is a huge issue. Cops should do enforcement and enforcement only, and limit as much as possible their engagement in all other social functions. Finally, joining the police force means willingly taking on the social function of violence and intimidation for the state, as well as forces you to engage in corrupt behaviour against the interests of society, the so called thin blue line. As long as these social functions and social constructs permeate law enforcement it will be a problematic institution, and once they aren't anymore it will be a tremendously helpful and appreciated institution.
    - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
      intimidating people into following the law and enforcing the law with violence are part of the social function of enforcement. You can't arrest people who don't want to be arrested without the threat of violence and you can't deter them from engaging in criminal acts that benefit them without giving them a credible threat of enforcement. the social function of handling sensitive situations is also inseparable to a large degree, and we already have social workers who handle this function when it can be separated. frequently police are called to a domestic violence report that where there has been no dv, or a neighbor trouble report where the neighbor causing the alleged trouble is mentally ill. there isn't always a way to know, and dispatching social workers to these incidents in the past has resulted in the social worker being a victim of violence. > Finally, joining the police force means willingly taking on the social function of violence and intimidation for the state Indeed, and among the individuals who find this prospect attractive are some of the people who are also potential organized crime participants. Those people aren't going away, the best you can do is to channel their aggressive tendencies into a force for social good that is constrained by norms and incentivized by the prospect of a steady income. > as well as forces you to engage in corrupt behaviour against the interests of society, the so called thin blue line. I'm not convinced that this behavior would go away if you changed their uniforms. Organized crime has a long tradition and predates the beneficent social order we have fought to replace it with. > As long as these social functions and social constructs permeate law enforcement it will be a problematic institution, and once they aren't anymore it will be a tremendously helpful and appreciated institution. respectfully, I suggest you articulate a way to enforce the law in a way that doesn't involve violence or the threat of violence. I would be very interested in such a social order if it were possible.

sudosysgen 6y ago

Is there an appreciably significant number of police departments that are structurally not prone to these kinds of a abuses? And if there are, how many of them don't enable others who do? Cop!=Programmer, cops integrate into one social function while programmers integrate onto many. The correct mapping would be public employee <=> programmer, or Raytheon weapons engineer <=> Soldier, for example. It really is the social function that is core to this argument.

kortilla 6y ago
The issue is not the social function though, it’s flaws in some police departments. Even on the left, there are very few who actually don’t want police around serving the function of stopping crimes when they occur.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  It's not a flaw in some police department, it is a flaw in the social order that manifests itself in abuses by numerous police departments, but the seeds of that are present in essentially all of them. Expressing the violence of the state is much broader than stopping crimes when they occur.
chordalkeyboard 6y ago
the coercive function in society is prone to abuse but that does not imply that all personnel engaged in the coercive function are complicit in what amounts to a criminal conspiracy. > Cop!=Programmer, cops integrate into one social function while programmers integrate onto many. The correct mapping would be public employee <=> programmer, or Raytheon weapons engineer <=> Soldier, for example. It really is the social function that is core to this argument. The social function that cops represent is the enforcement of laws and many of these laws are of a net benefit to society. it is an error to reduce the law enforcement function to brutality and expropriation when there are plenty of violent, malevolent, and larcenous individuals who are not police and still engage in socially undesirable behaviors.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  Sure, I'd agree with you, if the cops only implemented the social function of enforcement. But they don't, they implement the social function of intimidation and violence writ large, as well as the social function of taking care of people in sensitive situation. This is a huge issue. Cops should do enforcement and enforcement only, and limit as much as possible their engagement in all other social functions. Finally, joining the police force means willingly taking on the social function of violence and intimidation for the state, as well as forces you to engage in corrupt behaviour against the interests of society, the so called thin blue line. As long as these social functions and social constructs permeate law enforcement it will be a problematic institution, and once they aren't anymore it will be a tremendously helpful and appreciated institution.
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    intimidating people into following the law and enforcing the law with violence are part of the social function of enforcement. You can't arrest people who don't want to be arrested without the threat of violence and you can't deter them from engaging in criminal acts that benefit them without giving them a credible threat of enforcement. the social function of handling sensitive situations is also inseparable to a large degree, and we already have social workers who handle this function when it can be separated. frequently police are called to a domestic violence report that where there has been no dv, or a neighbor trouble report where the neighbor causing the alleged trouble is mentally ill. there isn't always a way to know, and dispatching social workers to these incidents in the past has resulted in the social worker being a victim of violence. > Finally, joining the police force means willingly taking on the social function of violence and intimidation for the state Indeed, and among the individuals who find this prospect attractive are some of the people who are also potential organized crime participants. Those people aren't going away, the best you can do is to channel their aggressive tendencies into a force for social good that is constrained by norms and incentivized by the prospect of a steady income. > as well as forces you to engage in corrupt behaviour against the interests of society, the so called thin blue line. I'm not convinced that this behavior would go away if you changed their uniforms. Organized crime has a long tradition and predates the beneficent social order we have fought to replace it with. > As long as these social functions and social constructs permeate law enforcement it will be a problematic institution, and once they aren't anymore it will be a tremendously helpful and appreciated institution. respectfully, I suggest you articulate a way to enforce the law in a way that doesn't involve violence or the threat of violence. I would be very interested in such a social order if it were possible.