3 ms·

Excellent submission. That was an extremely well-written and particularly trenchant piece of writing. It is interesting to compare the experiences of Ms. L to

Excellent submission. That was an extremely well-written and particularly trenchant piece of writing. It is interesting to compare the experiences of Ms. L to various people in their 40s returning to school when I was in undergrad. They too had difficulty with very basic (to us youngsters, anyway) methods of computer use. Many viewed computers with either outright terror or blatant suspicion. I have often thought of volunteering my time to a college or tech school locally to teach computer-illiterate people the basics of computer use. It would be such a simple thing for me and judging by Ms. L's plight, it could make all the difference in the world to some people.

maximilian 18y ago
It would be such a simple thing for me and judging by Ms. L's plight, it could make all the difference in the world to some people. SIMPLE!!!??? You clearly didn't teach your parents to use computers. Teaching people how to use computers is one of the more challenging and frustrating things I have yet to do. Besides perhaps math, computers baffle more adults than anything I can imagine. I used to have 2 hours phone calls with my mom trying to "get her document back". She had just clicked another window and her word doc was behind it. 2 hours later she accidently clicked the word doc again and it came forward. Teaching the computer illiterate is a can of worms I wouldn't open without some serious friends and some serious beer.
- jbenz 18y ago
  My Mom always wants the screen to "return to the way it was". Me: You mean the desktop? Mom: I don't know. The way it was. Me: Is it this? (shows her the desktop) Mom: No. It was all black. Me: You mean off? (shuts computer down) Mom: Yes. Thank you. My Mom's a preschool teacher, and I will rely heavily on her wisdom when I have kids, seeing as I don't know jack about 3 year olds. Me in 7 years: Mom, my kid won't eat his dinner. I think I got a broken one. We all have our own useful areas of knowledge.
  - michaelneale 18y ago
    Having kids myself, yes I can relate to that. I complain to my folks about what I see as major character problems in my little one, only to have my parents smile knowingly (I think they think its justice of some sort). The mention something about that being "familiar" behavior they saw once upon a time ;)
  - DaniFong 18y ago
    Aza and Jef Raskin's evangelism of static interfaces make a lot more sense in light of this. Thanks.
- sspencer 18y ago
  I meant simple in the sense that it would be a pretty straightforward way for me to help people like Ms. L. I doubt it would be in any way easy. And I taught my mother from basic computer illiteracy into practically a power user (well, a relative power user: email and surfing and transferring images from her digital camera. she's the envy of all her friends, at least...). The biggest hurdle was getting her to believe me that no matter what she did, she couldn't possibly harm the computer beyond my ability to repair it. I think a lot of people unfamiliar with computers think that it is very easy to irreparably damage them. It kind of discourages taking risks and trying to solve problems on your own. Once I made it clear that she could (and should) do whatever she wanted without fear, she picked it up extremely rapidly.
  - maximilian 18y ago
    I was basically joshing you. I agree with you on that hurdle though. Most people think of computers as machines. If you use a machine incorrectly, or in the wrong order, you can break it or even injure yourself. Computers, usually at least, don't work that way. It'd be pretty hard for my parents to mess up the computer more than losing that email they just spent the last hour hunt-and-pecking away at.
    - smelendez 18y ago
      I think that it's not only that older people didn't grow up with, say, the Windows interface or, as someone mentioned earlier, a telephone interface where you have to press send to make a call, it's an even more basic issue. They grew up in a world where machinery was expensive, fragile and dangerous and a world where adults seldom learned to operate fundamentally new machinery. Even sturdy, harmless household machinery wasn't safe to "play around" with. One reason you had to dial 1 to make a long distance call, even before exchanges and area codes overlapped, is to reduce the risk of misdialing or misunderstanding your way into a big bill. If you pick up the phone in the middle of the night and dial random numbers to figure out the numbering scheme and whether it takes longer to call cross-country, you'll get a big bill and, if you piss enough people off, get a visit from the police or a stern letter from the phone company. If you enter random URLs into your browser, you're unlikely to break anything. We (younger people) have an advantage in that we're used to pretty much everything being software driven, so we know that if we screw up our computer, phone or DVD player we can just pull the plug or the battery. We're also used to the idea that not every device will behave the same way to achieve the same function. We press "send" to "send" a call, but not to send an SMS message, even though the latter is standard usage and the former is not, but we don't care because we know that's how the UI works. And, we know that we'll have to keep learning new UIs as we get older. Older people don't have a problem dialing nine for an outside line, even though at home they just pick up the receiver, because they probably learned it in their 20s.
- neilk 18y ago
  It tries my patience too, but we just have to remember: to the uninitiated, it's all rectangles. You and I see 'windows', 'buttons', etc, but to them it's all rectangles. We are so far away from an actually usable interface it's disgusting.
  - aasarava 18y ago
    We are so far away from an actually usable interface it's disgusting. Tech interfaces are usable -- they're just not intuitive to those who didn't grow up using computers. Ironically, part of the problem is that the metaphors and shortcuts that some interfaces use in an attempt to make things easier end up make things more confusing: - Operating systems: "Why is the trashcan on my desktop?" - Macs: "If I want to eject the CD, I'm supposed to throw it away in the trashcan?" - Cell phones: "So you're saying I have to hold down the off button if I want to turn the phone on?" So yeah, we do have a long, long way to go.
    - blogimus 18y ago
      Or also with the cell phone: "Why do I have to press 'send' to make a call? On a regular phone, I just dial the number. I press 'send' when I send a fax."
      - derefr 18y ago
        Not on a cordless phone you don't (does anyone really have a phone any more that has a dial tone from the moment you pick it up?)
        jkramar 18y ago
        Yes, in fact we don't have a single cordless phone. We do, however, have a regular phone with a ridiculously long cord that can thus be carried around.
    - derefr 18y ago
      Well, with OSX at least, the trash is in the dock (so not quite on the desktop any more), and most people eject using the single-purpose Eject button on their keyboards. Also, the button is usually marked with an "1/0" symbol, not really an "off", so it really just means "toggle power."
gaius 18y ago
It's that preconception that is responsible for widespread "ageism" in the IT industry. Do you not perhaps think that correlation is not causation? Maybe "dropping out of the education system early" is in fact a more significant data point than being 40? I'm 32 and if things stay as they are, in 10 years I'll have real trouble changing jobs in this industry. The current crop of geeks are in for a nasty surprise if they think they'll be a hot commodity forever.
stcredzero 18y ago
"I have often thought of volunteering my time to a college or tech school locally to teach computer-illiterate people the basics of computer use. It would be such a simple thing for me and judging by Ms. L's plight, it could make all the difference in the world to some people." If you do this enough, you will inevitably come up against a real challenge. One of my students could not even double-click. She would raise her hand to hover a couple of inches above the mouse, then stab down with her finger twice. Not only was this too slow to register as a double click, she invariably moved the mouse. with each downward stab of her finger. I would show her the right way to do it, but she would always devolve to her old behavior.

maximilian 18y ago

It would be such a simple thing for me and judging by Ms. L's plight, it could make all the difference in the world to some people. SIMPLE!!!??? You clearly didn't teach your parents to use computers. Teaching people how to use computers is one of the more challenging and frustrating things I have yet to do. Besides perhaps math, computers baffle more adults than anything I can imagine. I used to have 2 hours phone calls with my mom trying to "get her document back". She had just clicked another window and her word doc was behind it. 2 hours later she accidently clicked the word doc again and it came forward. Teaching the computer illiterate is a can of worms I wouldn't open without some serious friends and some serious beer.

jbenz 18y ago
My Mom always wants the screen to "return to the way it was". Me: You mean the desktop? Mom: I don't know. The way it was. Me: Is it this? (shows her the desktop) Mom: No. It was all black. Me: You mean off? (shuts computer down) Mom: Yes. Thank you. My Mom's a preschool teacher, and I will rely heavily on her wisdom when I have kids, seeing as I don't know jack about 3 year olds. Me in 7 years: Mom, my kid won't eat his dinner. I think I got a broken one. We all have our own useful areas of knowledge.
- michaelneale 18y ago
  Having kids myself, yes I can relate to that. I complain to my folks about what I see as major character problems in my little one, only to have my parents smile knowingly (I think they think its justice of some sort). The mention something about that being "familiar" behavior they saw once upon a time ;)
- DaniFong 18y ago
  Aza and Jef Raskin's evangelism of static interfaces make a lot more sense in light of this. Thanks.
sspencer 18y ago
I meant simple in the sense that it would be a pretty straightforward way for me to help people like Ms. L. I doubt it would be in any way easy. And I taught my mother from basic computer illiteracy into practically a power user (well, a relative power user: email and surfing and transferring images from her digital camera. she's the envy of all her friends, at least...). The biggest hurdle was getting her to believe me that no matter what she did, she couldn't possibly harm the computer beyond my ability to repair it. I think a lot of people unfamiliar with computers think that it is very easy to irreparably damage them. It kind of discourages taking risks and trying to solve problems on your own. Once I made it clear that she could (and should) do whatever she wanted without fear, she picked it up extremely rapidly.
- maximilian 18y ago
  I was basically joshing you. I agree with you on that hurdle though. Most people think of computers as machines. If you use a machine incorrectly, or in the wrong order, you can break it or even injure yourself. Computers, usually at least, don't work that way. It'd be pretty hard for my parents to mess up the computer more than losing that email they just spent the last hour hunt-and-pecking away at.
  - smelendez 18y ago
    I think that it's not only that older people didn't grow up with, say, the Windows interface or, as someone mentioned earlier, a telephone interface where you have to press send to make a call, it's an even more basic issue. They grew up in a world where machinery was expensive, fragile and dangerous and a world where adults seldom learned to operate fundamentally new machinery. Even sturdy, harmless household machinery wasn't safe to "play around" with. One reason you had to dial 1 to make a long distance call, even before exchanges and area codes overlapped, is to reduce the risk of misdialing or misunderstanding your way into a big bill. If you pick up the phone in the middle of the night and dial random numbers to figure out the numbering scheme and whether it takes longer to call cross-country, you'll get a big bill and, if you piss enough people off, get a visit from the police or a stern letter from the phone company. If you enter random URLs into your browser, you're unlikely to break anything. We (younger people) have an advantage in that we're used to pretty much everything being software driven, so we know that if we screw up our computer, phone or DVD player we can just pull the plug or the battery. We're also used to the idea that not every device will behave the same way to achieve the same function. We press "send" to "send" a call, but not to send an SMS message, even though the latter is standard usage and the former is not, but we don't care because we know that's how the UI works. And, we know that we'll have to keep learning new UIs as we get older. Older people don't have a problem dialing nine for an outside line, even though at home they just pick up the receiver, because they probably learned it in their 20s.
neilk 18y ago
It tries my patience too, but we just have to remember: to the uninitiated, it's all rectangles. You and I see 'windows', 'buttons', etc, but to them it's all rectangles. We are so far away from an actually usable interface it's disgusting.
- aasarava 18y ago
  We are so far away from an actually usable interface it's disgusting. Tech interfaces are usable -- they're just not intuitive to those who didn't grow up using computers. Ironically, part of the problem is that the metaphors and shortcuts that some interfaces use in an attempt to make things easier end up make things more confusing: - Operating systems: "Why is the trashcan on my desktop?" - Macs: "If I want to eject the CD, I'm supposed to throw it away in the trashcan?" - Cell phones: "So you're saying I have to hold down the off button if I want to turn the phone on?" So yeah, we do have a long, long way to go.
  - blogimus 18y ago
    Or also with the cell phone: "Why do I have to press 'send' to make a call? On a regular phone, I just dial the number. I press 'send' when I send a fax."
    - derefr 18y ago
      Not on a cordless phone you don't (does anyone really have a phone any more that has a dial tone from the moment you pick it up?)
      - jkramar 18y ago
        Yes, in fact we don't have a single cordless phone. We do, however, have a regular phone with a ridiculously long cord that can thus be carried around.
  - derefr 18y ago
    Well, with OSX at least, the trash is in the dock (so not quite on the desktop any more), and most people eject using the single-purpose Eject button on their keyboards. Also, the button is usually marked with an "1/0" symbol, not really an "off", so it really just means "toggle power."

gaius 18y ago

It's that preconception that is responsible for widespread "ageism" in the IT industry. Do you not perhaps think that correlation is not causation? Maybe "dropping out of the education system early" is in fact a more significant data point than being 40? I'm 32 and if things stay as they are, in 10 years I'll have real trouble changing jobs in this industry. The current crop of geeks are in for a nasty surprise if they think they'll be a hot commodity forever.

stcredzero 18y ago

"I have often thought of volunteering my time to a college or tech school locally to teach computer-illiterate people the basics of computer use. It would be such a simple thing for me and judging by Ms. L's plight, it could make all the difference in the world to some people." If you do this enough, you will inevitably come up against a real challenge. One of my students could not even double-click. She would raise her hand to hover a couple of inches above the mouse, then stab down with her finger twice. Not only was this too slow to register as a double click, she invariably moved the mouse. with each downward stab of her finger. I would show her the right way to do it, but she would always devolve to her old behavior.