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China perfected this all for us and now the U.S. government can piggyback off of their practices... great. Serious note - the below is such a scary concept. Th

China perfected this all for us and now the U.S. government can piggyback off of their practices... great. Serious note - the below is such a scary concept. There is a line somewhere and this feels like you are starting to cross it... both place-based and person-based predictive policing sound ripe for profiling / instigating actions that police can use as a reason to arrest an otherwise harmless person. "Predictive policing programs are another illustrative example showing how data, surveillance technology, and a system of automated policing work together to spy on, search, and, ultimately, control Americans who have not committed or been convicted of a crime. Predictive policing is premised on the idea that historical data of crime, demographics, socioeconomics, and geography can be used to forecast future incidents. Knowing where crime is likely to occur again, police try to intervene beforehand and prevent it. Broadly there are two kinds of “heat maps” produced by predictive policing models: place-based, which uses less data to try to avoid systemic pitfalls of relying on crime and demographic data and surges police into specific areas, and person-based, which tracks and creates a list of “high-risk” individuals by combining a person's criminal history with an analysis of their social network. "

jancsika 6y ago
> person-based, which tracks and creates a list of “high-risk” individuals by combining a person's criminal history with an analysis of their social network. There is no way the software actually achieves this. If it did we would have already heard about a well-off target identified by the software, a target with the means to mount a loud defense against such tracking. And it cannot be that the software accurately returns such results but LE simply ignores them if the target seems to be too powerful. In that case we would have already heard from a leaker about a murder from a perpetrator that such a system correctly identified but LE neglected to follow up on. (Think of the value to the company of such evidence!) No, I'm guessing this system gives LE cover for the same flawed systems they've historically used to target and harass people who don't have the means to loudly mount a defense. Just take the same process that a court has ruled against as unconstitutional, use its data as input to your ML algo, and voila! You've probably got at at least one more decade before society figures out you're just appending the words "through a sophisticated AI system" to your outlawed policing.
- moate 6y ago
  >>There is no way the software actually achieves this. If it did we would have already heard about a well-off target identified by the software, a target with the means to mount a loud defense against such tracking. I mean it's more likely that the system is going to informing you about likely targets for certain crime types (less murder which is frequently singular and more drug dealing since repeated). It's going to help create lists of suspects to pursue on a matter. If one of them is also a senator's son or a CEO, you'd likely go in softer than Joe Poorperson
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- monocasa 6y ago
  Why would we have heard about any of the failures? Part of the 'blue wall' is intended to hide policing failures from the general populace. Particularly when * in the case of targeting a well off person who they decide to further investigate, they can simply use it as reason to look harder at someone, use parallel construction to build the case that the defense sees, and simply drop any cases where the defense happens to get too close. This is what they do with stingrays. * in the case of targeting a well off person who they decide not to investigate, they can simply tell themselves that the person is a paragon of society and it must be one of the failures of the technology. Like when a boy escaped Jeffrey Dahmer's house heavily drugged, running down the street, bleeding out of his anus, begging anyone who would listen to not let Jeffrey take him back, the police got involved and gave him back since Jeffrey was such a paragon of the town. That cop later became head of the police union.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  > I'm guessing this system gives LE cover for the same flawed systems they've historically used to target and harass people who don't have the means to loudly mount a defense. This is exactly what happens. If we look at the evidence[1], law enforcement preys upon the poor and minorities who are not even committing crimes, but their predictive policing systems target them for harassment anyway. [1] https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/police-pasco-sheriff-targeted/body-cam-footage/ https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/p...

jancsika 6y ago

> person-based, which tracks and creates a list of “high-risk” individuals by combining a person's criminal history with an analysis of their social network. There is no way the software actually achieves this. If it did we would have already heard about a well-off target identified by the software, a target with the means to mount a loud defense against such tracking. And it cannot be that the software accurately returns such results but LE simply ignores them if the target seems to be too powerful. In that case we would have already heard from a leaker about a murder from a perpetrator that such a system correctly identified but LE neglected to follow up on. (Think of the value to the company of such evidence!) No, I'm guessing this system gives LE cover for the same flawed systems they've historically used to target and harass people who don't have the means to loudly mount a defense. Just take the same process that a court has ruled against as unconstitutional, use its data as input to your ML algo, and voila! You've probably got at at least one more decade before society figures out you're just appending the words "through a sophisticated AI system" to your outlawed policing.

moate 6y ago
>>There is no way the software actually achieves this. If it did we would have already heard about a well-off target identified by the software, a target with the means to mount a loud defense against such tracking. I mean it's more likely that the system is going to informing you about likely targets for certain crime types (less murder which is frequently singular and more drug dealing since repeated). It's going to help create lists of suspects to pursue on a matter. If one of them is also a senator's son or a CEO, you'd likely go in softer than Joe Poorperson
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
monocasa 6y ago
Why would we have heard about any of the failures? Part of the 'blue wall' is intended to hide policing failures from the general populace. Particularly when * in the case of targeting a well off person who they decide to further investigate, they can simply use it as reason to look harder at someone, use parallel construction to build the case that the defense sees, and simply drop any cases where the defense happens to get too close. This is what they do with stingrays. * in the case of targeting a well off person who they decide not to investigate, they can simply tell themselves that the person is a paragon of society and it must be one of the failures of the technology. Like when a boy escaped Jeffrey Dahmer's house heavily drugged, running down the street, bleeding out of his anus, begging anyone who would listen to not let Jeffrey take him back, the police got involved and gave him back since Jeffrey was such a paragon of the town. That cop later became head of the police union.
heavyset_go 6y ago
> I'm guessing this system gives LE cover for the same flawed systems they've historically used to target and harass people who don't have the means to loudly mount a defense. This is exactly what happens. If we look at the evidence[1], law enforcement preys upon the poor and minorities who are not even committing crimes, but their predictive policing systems target them for harassment anyway. [1] https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/police-pasco-sheriff-targeted/body-cam-footage/ https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/p...