6 ms·

Same thing happened to Nvidia, and I'm very perplexed why this is not widely reported. I wonder how the 3070 and 3060 are going to compare, in terms of perform

Same thing happened to Nvidia, and I'm very perplexed why this is not widely reported. I wonder how the 3070 and 3060 are going to compare, in terms of performance per watt, when compared to the 2080/2070 series. Based on the current numbers, they'll possibly show very little improvement.

amarshall 6y ago
What “current numbers” do you refer to? Of course it may depend on workload, but the 3080 has, at least in one benchmark[1], better performance per watt than all compared cards (7% better than 2080 Ti, 21% than 2070, 32% than 2080, 67% than 1080 Ti). Total power consumption is up quite a bit (25% over 2080 Ti), but still get more performance than more power. [1] https://youtu.be/csSmiaR3RVE?t=1229 https://youtu.be/csSmiaR3RVE?t=1229
- wmf 6y ago
  Right, the efficiency improvement used to be ~60% per two years now it's 7% per two years.
  - ascom 6y ago
    NVIDIA pushed the 3080's stock performance a little too high up the perf/watt curve. If you limit it to the TDP of the 2080 Ti, you lose 4% performance but you get much better efficiency: https://www.computerbase.de/2020-09/geforce-rtx-3080-test/6/ https://www.computerbase.de/2020-09/geforce-rtx-3080-test/6/
  - webmaven 6y ago
    > Right, the efficiency improvement used to be ~60% per two years now it's 7% per two years. Is 3080 vs. 2080 Ti the correct comparison?
    - amarshall 6y ago
      It’s not clear yet, since we’ve no idea if there will be a 3080 Ti. The 3090 throws out the naming convention from the past few generations, leaving it a bit of a mystery. Nvidia may do as they did with the 1080 Ti: not release till nearly a year after the 1080 (whereas 2080 & 2080 Ti were launched just a week apart). Given the 3090 is not too much faster than 3080, it seems there may not be room there. But then again, the 1080 Ti was as fast as the Titan X. So…yea.
    - pizza234 6y ago
      This is actually what I find extremely dishonest (which is, in other words, extremely good marketing) - a lot of websites are comparing the 3080 with the 2080, and reporting massive improvements... which doesn't make much sense. I think 3080 vs 2080 Ti is the only possible comparison, but websites should make it very clear that it's an unfair comparison. Probably the only comparison that actually makes sense is the (future) 3070 vs 2080 Ti. I'm not suprised that Nvidia pushed the release (it was supposed to be released earlier).
JoshTko 6y ago
Good analysis on this by AdoredTV. TLDR Ampere is one of the smallest improvements in performance per watt in Nvidia's history. https://youtu.be/VjOnWT9U96g?t=1104 https://youtu.be/VjOnWT9U96g?t=1104
- sawjet 6y ago
  AdoredTV is a known AMD shill.
  - JoshTko 6y ago
    Was there an issue with any of the math in the video? It was just straight forward performance per watt / performance per watt calculations as far as I could tell.
    - wmf 6y ago
      The numbers and math all look correct but some of the comparisons seem to be cherry-picked. Titans weren't included but the 3090 was for example.
      - JoshTko 6y ago
        3090 is not a titan as per Nvidia. They are promoting it as the 8k gaming solution.
      - jamra 6y ago
        The 3090 should be the new Titans
wmf 6y ago
Coincidentally there was a Twitter fight about that topic last night. From a consumer perspective there's nothing that can really be done about it. Chip designers have known for years that "Moore's Law" is slowing so it's not news to them.
dahart 6y ago
The end of Moore’s law has been broadly reported for the last decade and is widely understood. Nobody is likely to get huge efficiency improvements in general processors ever again, not like what we saw in the past, and it isn’t news anymore. Algorithmic improvements, custom domain specific ASICs, and maybe quantum computing or other physical processes in the future are where large efficiency deltas might come, but for now small improvements are here to stay for all chip makers.
- GeekyBear 6y ago
  Moore's law may be considered dead at Intel, but TSMC does not agree. >Wong, who is vice president of corporate research at Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corp, gave a presentation at the recent Hot Chips conference where he claimed that not only is Moore’s Law alive and well, but with the right bag of technology tricks it will remain viable for the next three decades. “It’s not dead,” he told the Hot Chips attendees. It’s not slowing down. It’s not even sick.” https://www.nextplatform.com/2019/09/13/tsmc-thinks-it-can-uphold-moores-law-for-decades/ https://www.nextplatform.com/2019/09/13/tsmc-thinks-it-can-u...
  - NobodyNada 6y ago
    I'm not sure chip fabs are ever going to say Moore's law is dead -- I interned at Intel last summer, and Moore's law was pretty much all they could talk about. (In fact, they made very similar claims at the exact same conference [0]). [0]: https://twitter.com/stshank/status/1295469775678627840 https://twitter.com/stshank/status/1295469775678627840
    - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
      Maybe another approach has potential: [0] https://www.eetimes.com/bipolar-zener-combo-takes-on-cmos/ https://www.eetimes.com/bipolar-zener-combo-takes-on-cmos/ In fact, multiple gates can be created in the same transistor, in an effect SFN calls “multi-tunnel.” Multiple NOR and OR gates can thus be created from a single Bizen transistor, allowing creation of logic circuits with many fewer devices. This can result in a three-fold increase in gate density with a corresponding reduction in die size for integrated circuits based on the transistors. Summerland said that SFN is also creating a reduced device count processor architecture to enable analogue computing with Bizen transistors.
blihp 6y ago
The press follows, rather than identifies, the trend. It doesn't help that in most 'news' organizations, the news is considered entertainment and isn't terribly rigorous. The 2xxx series wasn't terribly impressive to many so they've just started to peak out in the way that Intel did at least 5 years ago. We're heading into AMD's 4th iteration of processors that basically mop the floor with Intel from a price/performance and performance/watt standpoint and it's just starting to become accepted in the mainstream that Intel is in trouble. It will take another generation or two of products before the press catches on to the fact that what nVidia is telling everyone isn't true. Of course it will be helpful if there's some competition to point to that helps make the case.

amarshall 6y ago

What “current numbers” do you refer to? Of course it may depend on workload, but the 3080 has, at least in one benchmark[1], better performance per watt than all compared cards (7% better than 2080 Ti, 21% than 2070, 32% than 2080, 67% than 1080 Ti). Total power consumption is up quite a bit (25% over 2080 Ti), but still get more performance than more power. [1] https://youtu.be/csSmiaR3RVE?t=1229 https://youtu.be/csSmiaR3RVE?t=1229

wmf 6y ago
Right, the efficiency improvement used to be ~60% per two years now it's 7% per two years.
- ascom 6y ago
  NVIDIA pushed the 3080's stock performance a little too high up the perf/watt curve. If you limit it to the TDP of the 2080 Ti, you lose 4% performance but you get much better efficiency: https://www.computerbase.de/2020-09/geforce-rtx-3080-test/6/ https://www.computerbase.de/2020-09/geforce-rtx-3080-test/6/
- webmaven 6y ago
  > Right, the efficiency improvement used to be ~60% per two years now it's 7% per two years. Is 3080 vs. 2080 Ti the correct comparison?
  - amarshall 6y ago
    It’s not clear yet, since we’ve no idea if there will be a 3080 Ti. The 3090 throws out the naming convention from the past few generations, leaving it a bit of a mystery. Nvidia may do as they did with the 1080 Ti: not release till nearly a year after the 1080 (whereas 2080 & 2080 Ti were launched just a week apart). Given the 3090 is not too much faster than 3080, it seems there may not be room there. But then again, the 1080 Ti was as fast as the Titan X. So…yea.
  - pizza234 6y ago
    This is actually what I find extremely dishonest (which is, in other words, extremely good marketing) - a lot of websites are comparing the 3080 with the 2080, and reporting massive improvements... which doesn't make much sense. I think 3080 vs 2080 Ti is the only possible comparison, but websites should make it very clear that it's an unfair comparison. Probably the only comparison that actually makes sense is the (future) 3070 vs 2080 Ti. I'm not suprised that Nvidia pushed the release (it was supposed to be released earlier).

JoshTko 6y ago

Good analysis on this by AdoredTV. TLDR Ampere is one of the smallest improvements in performance per watt in Nvidia's history. https://youtu.be/VjOnWT9U96g?t=1104 https://youtu.be/VjOnWT9U96g?t=1104

sawjet 6y ago
AdoredTV is a known AMD shill.
- JoshTko 6y ago
  Was there an issue with any of the math in the video? It was just straight forward performance per watt / performance per watt calculations as far as I could tell.
  - wmf 6y ago
    The numbers and math all look correct but some of the comparisons seem to be cherry-picked. Titans weren't included but the 3090 was for example.
    - JoshTko 6y ago
      3090 is not a titan as per Nvidia. They are promoting it as the 8k gaming solution.
    - jamra 6y ago
      The 3090 should be the new Titans

wmf 6y ago

Coincidentally there was a Twitter fight about that topic last night. From a consumer perspective there's nothing that can really be done about it. Chip designers have known for years that "Moore's Law" is slowing so it's not news to them.

dahart 6y ago

The end of Moore’s law has been broadly reported for the last decade and is widely understood. Nobody is likely to get huge efficiency improvements in general processors ever again, not like what we saw in the past, and it isn’t news anymore. Algorithmic improvements, custom domain specific ASICs, and maybe quantum computing or other physical processes in the future are where large efficiency deltas might come, but for now small improvements are here to stay for all chip makers.

GeekyBear 6y ago
Moore's law may be considered dead at Intel, but TSMC does not agree. >Wong, who is vice president of corporate research at Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corp, gave a presentation at the recent Hot Chips conference where he claimed that not only is Moore’s Law alive and well, but with the right bag of technology tricks it will remain viable for the next three decades. “It’s not dead,” he told the Hot Chips attendees. It’s not slowing down. It’s not even sick.” https://www.nextplatform.com/2019/09/13/tsmc-thinks-it-can-uphold-moores-law-for-decades/ https://www.nextplatform.com/2019/09/13/tsmc-thinks-it-can-u...
- NobodyNada 6y ago
  I'm not sure chip fabs are ever going to say Moore's law is dead -- I interned at Intel last summer, and Moore's law was pretty much all they could talk about. (In fact, they made very similar claims at the exact same conference [0]). [0]: https://twitter.com/stshank/status/1295469775678627840 https://twitter.com/stshank/status/1295469775678627840
  - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
    Maybe another approach has potential: [0] https://www.eetimes.com/bipolar-zener-combo-takes-on-cmos/ https://www.eetimes.com/bipolar-zener-combo-takes-on-cmos/ In fact, multiple gates can be created in the same transistor, in an effect SFN calls “multi-tunnel.” Multiple NOR and OR gates can thus be created from a single Bizen transistor, allowing creation of logic circuits with many fewer devices. This can result in a three-fold increase in gate density with a corresponding reduction in die size for integrated circuits based on the transistors. Summerland said that SFN is also creating a reduced device count processor architecture to enable analogue computing with Bizen transistors.

blihp 6y ago

The press follows, rather than identifies, the trend. It doesn't help that in most 'news' organizations, the news is considered entertainment and isn't terribly rigorous. The 2xxx series wasn't terribly impressive to many so they've just started to peak out in the way that Intel did at least 5 years ago. We're heading into AMD's 4th iteration of processors that basically mop the floor with Intel from a price/performance and performance/watt standpoint and it's just starting to become accepted in the mainstream that Intel is in trouble. It will take another generation or two of products before the press catches on to the fact that what nVidia is telling everyone isn't true. Of course it will be helpful if there's some competition to point to that helps make the case.