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> but this is part of the reason I like that Apple makes (practically) all purchases run through them. I vehemently disagree - in the name of "protecting priva

> but this is part of the reason I like that Apple makes (practically) all purchases run through them. I vehemently disagree - in the name of "protecting privacy" Apple has been fooling users to believe that only Apple can be trusted with user data, and the biggest lie they sell is that they don't do anything with your data, unlike other corporates. From crippling Safari by allowing full cookies by default, and claiming to block trackers and browser fingerprinting (which a Google study itself has busted), to collecting user data in "anonymised" form Apple has been disingenuously mining its user's data with users given no choice.

srtjstjsj 6y ago
Do you have evidence of anything being mined?
- shajznnckfke 6y ago
  Apple’s careers page has job listings indicating they are using an industry standard data warehousing, ETL, star schema etc. user analytics stack for something. I don’t think any specific claims they made about privacy are false (they have many different products and services), but they are definitely doing some kind of data mining.
  - threeseed 6y ago
    Apple does product analytics. Whenever you install/update iOS/OSX they specifically ask you if you want to send anonymised data to Apple which details how you are using the OS. They couldn't be more upfront and clear about it. And when I was working at Apple years ago they were using a very old and clunky SAP system for all of their customer purchases. It would be pretty common sense to ETL this to a data lake in order to do reports e.g. which apps are popular.
threeseed 6y ago
Very strange to call Apple out as being a liar and can't be trusted with user data because of Safari's cookie and tracker policy. Because of all the browsers they have led the way in reducing the ability for advertisers to track you.
- hu3 6y ago
  Can Apple be trusted tho? "Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22106536 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22106536
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > Because of all the browsers they have led the way in reducing the ability for advertisers to track you. Certainly when compared to Chrome, but Firefox? Brave? Tor Browser? No. Which is why it's so unfortunate that you can't get a real third party browser for iOS.
  - jolux 6y ago
    Tor Browser is terrible for security, and I don’t think Firefox started doing tracking prevention before Safari did. I may have the timeline wrong though. As for Brave, well. They have a different business model but I’m not entirely clear on what their technological innovation is?
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      > Tor Browser is terrible for security [citation needed] The exit node can't do anything your ISP can't. Meanwhile you can choose the exit node, which you often can't for your ISP, which means you can choose one operated by someone you trust. And even if you don't, what are they going to do to a TLS connection? > and I don’t think Firefox started doing tracking prevention before Safari did Tor Browser is based on Firefox, so the anti-fingerprinting work they do regularly gets merged back into Firefox proper. Moreover, Firefox has had some of the best anti-tracking addons since forever, but you can only have those if you actually have Firefox. But Tor Browser is still more stringent about certain things, e.g. they always reset the window to a standard size when you open it so the page can't track you based on that, which Firefox itself doesn't do because it's kind of annoying to the user. Which is another reason why there is benefit in having multiple browsers -- they each have different trade offs. > They have a different business model but I’m not entirely clear on what their technological innovation is? They do a lot of good work on ad blocking, and are willing to be a lot more aggressive about it, since it aligns directly with their incentives.
tozeur 6y ago
This sounds like privacy fear mongering What part of Apple’s business model would make them monetize user data through ads?
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > What part of Apple’s business model would make them monetize user data through ads? The same part that has Microsoft doing it -- they can make additional money from it regardless of whether the user is paying them already. Which isn't to say that Apple is actually doing it, but if they're not, that's not why.
Razengan 6y ago
> in the name of "protecting privacy" Apple has been fooling users to believe that only Apple can be trusted with user data Even if Apple can’t be trusted with my data, I’d rather that it lie with them. > and the biggest lie According to? > From crippling Safari by allowing full cookies by default and claiming to block trackers and browser fingerprinting It works, even if it’s not perfect and it’s certainly better than nothing or Chrome’s defaults. > a Google study /cough
- kelnos 6y ago
  > Even if Apple can’t be trusted with my data, I’d rather that it lie with them. May I ask why? If hypothetically Apple isn't trustworthy with your data, why would you prefer them over any other company with a hypothetically similarly-bad level of trustworthiness?
  - Razengan 6y ago
    Have you even seen what happens when X is reported for any other company versus when the same X is reported for Apple?

srtjstjsj 6y ago

Do you have evidence of anything being mined?

shajznnckfke 6y ago
Apple’s careers page has job listings indicating they are using an industry standard data warehousing, ETL, star schema etc. user analytics stack for something. I don’t think any specific claims they made about privacy are false (they have many different products and services), but they are definitely doing some kind of data mining.
- threeseed 6y ago
  Apple does product analytics. Whenever you install/update iOS/OSX they specifically ask you if you want to send anonymised data to Apple which details how you are using the OS. They couldn't be more upfront and clear about it. And when I was working at Apple years ago they were using a very old and clunky SAP system for all of their customer purchases. It would be pretty common sense to ETL this to a data lake in order to do reports e.g. which apps are popular.

threeseed 6y ago

Very strange to call Apple out as being a liar and can't be trusted with user data because of Safari's cookie and tracker policy. Because of all the browsers they have led the way in reducing the ability for advertisers to track you.

hu3 6y ago
Can Apple be trusted tho? "Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22106536 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22106536
AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> Because of all the browsers they have led the way in reducing the ability for advertisers to track you. Certainly when compared to Chrome, but Firefox? Brave? Tor Browser? No. Which is why it's so unfortunate that you can't get a real third party browser for iOS.
- jolux 6y ago
  Tor Browser is terrible for security, and I don’t think Firefox started doing tracking prevention before Safari did. I may have the timeline wrong though. As for Brave, well. They have a different business model but I’m not entirely clear on what their technological innovation is?
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    > Tor Browser is terrible for security [citation needed] The exit node can't do anything your ISP can't. Meanwhile you can choose the exit node, which you often can't for your ISP, which means you can choose one operated by someone you trust. And even if you don't, what are they going to do to a TLS connection? > and I don’t think Firefox started doing tracking prevention before Safari did Tor Browser is based on Firefox, so the anti-fingerprinting work they do regularly gets merged back into Firefox proper. Moreover, Firefox has had some of the best anti-tracking addons since forever, but you can only have those if you actually have Firefox. But Tor Browser is still more stringent about certain things, e.g. they always reset the window to a standard size when you open it so the page can't track you based on that, which Firefox itself doesn't do because it's kind of annoying to the user. Which is another reason why there is benefit in having multiple browsers -- they each have different trade offs. > They have a different business model but I’m not entirely clear on what their technological innovation is? They do a lot of good work on ad blocking, and are willing to be a lot more aggressive about it, since it aligns directly with their incentives.

tozeur 6y ago

This sounds like privacy fear mongering What part of Apple’s business model would make them monetize user data through ads?

AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> What part of Apple’s business model would make them monetize user data through ads? The same part that has Microsoft doing it -- they can make additional money from it regardless of whether the user is paying them already. Which isn't to say that Apple is actually doing it, but if they're not, that's not why.

Razengan 6y ago

> in the name of "protecting privacy" Apple has been fooling users to believe that only Apple can be trusted with user data Even if Apple can’t be trusted with my data, I’d rather that it lie with them. > and the biggest lie According to? > From crippling Safari by allowing full cookies by default and claiming to block trackers and browser fingerprinting It works, even if it’s not perfect and it’s certainly better than nothing or Chrome’s defaults. > a Google study /cough

kelnos 6y ago
> Even if Apple can’t be trusted with my data, I’d rather that it lie with them. May I ask why? If hypothetically Apple isn't trustworthy with your data, why would you prefer them over any other company with a hypothetically similarly-bad level of trustworthiness?
- Razengan 6y ago
  Have you even seen what happens when X is reported for any other company versus when the same X is reported for Apple?