6 ms·

You know what's totally nuts? Taking Amphetamine daily for years in reasonable doses essentially has no long term negative effects. In that way, similar to coff

You know what's totally nuts? Taking Amphetamine daily for years in reasonable doses essentially has no long term negative effects. In that way, similar to coffee. When I think about that, it's kind of mind blowing. For that matter, it is also crazy that we don't start giving children coffee at younger ages to help focus — since there are no known negative effects. It's just a cultural trope that it stunts growth, etc. It took ages before people recognized that there weren't really health downsides to coffee. We are so trained to expect that "every up has a down" — but what if that's just a relic of Calvinism and we are inhibiting our full potential because of misplaced fears?

kqr 6y ago
> You know what's totally nuts? Taking Amphetamine daily for years in reasonable doses essentially has no long term negative effects. In that way, similar to coffee. This is a null hypothesis that hasn't been refuted due to lack of evidence, and not an alternative hypothesis that has been proven by evidence, right? I ask because I've been looking into this before, and from what I remember there was virtually no evidence on long term use in reasonable amounts. (There is evidence on short term use in reasonable amounts, and long term use in unreasonable amounts, though.)
- dr_dshiv 6y ago
  Well, it's scientifically difficult to randomly assign people and assess effects for multiple decades. So the ideal evidence won't be available. But if we accept a "nutrition science" level of evidence, then I'd say there is strong evidence showing the naturalistic longterm use of adhd meds is not dangerous. Especially considering our baysian prior: a person off the street would estimate far stronger negative effects of taking speed every single day. In fact, adhd meds are correlated with healthier outcomes (of course, huge selection effects. Yes, eating kale will be associated with increased health, but it isn't causal) Here is the best recent review that I know of: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924977X12001988?casa_token=JTFfFAAPMioAAAAA:CmPJ3Prrcnw3XctpMa-W-ZtKvg7-dhI37Jo4BjBRKIDgLPXi1c6-JGrcuWmAHUMZkJLd2-Smn0Q https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924977X1... I'd love to know your take.
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    > In fact, adhd meds are correlated with healthier outcomes (of course, huge selection effects. Yes, eating kale will be associated with increased health, but it isn't causal) Yeah, I'd say p much impossible to untangle there without experimental evidence.
acituan 6y ago
> we don't start giving children coffee at younger ages to help focus > we are inhibiting our full potential because of misplaced fears? I'll argue with the assumption that there is zero long term psychobiological consequences to exogenous psychostimulants (I personally don't buy this, but let's assume it was true). Increasing focus and task salience is only one of the many factors constitutive of human potential. They never give the answer for what to focus on, or whether a task is worth it or not, and rob the person of the opportunity for developing frustration tolerance. They turn people into indiscriminate doing machines, with little wisdom to guide it. Makes one think if prescription amphetamines being as widespread among plumbers as software engineers is truly a coincidence. I will argue this is because our bioeconomics, our not wanting to do things is also part of our wisdom machinery. Having used for half a decade myself, I can spot some collogues who are on amphetamines; unnecessarily assertive, obsessed with orderliness of code, constantly in need of refactoring, huge bias for action with diminished wisdom to temper it (Well, also pees a lot.). There is a reason they are not being used by fighter pilots anymore because they can get too cocky and make decisions that kill their own. No wonder everything looks like a good idea when your brain is swimming in dopamine and norepinephrine, but when everything looks like a good idea, how do you find what is the right thing to do in the medium/long term? Is that really the human potential? I would argue far from it. I think it is just enhancing the potential for a particular job description that requires you to sit on your bum all day and plumb boring stuff someone else tells you to.
- justinko 6y ago
  I’ve read a lot of comments around amphetamines. This is probably my favorite. Amps turn you into a drone. Any perceived benefit is met with equal or greater detriment.
- sam1r 6y ago
  +1 thanks for this
- ditonal 6y ago
  Feels like every week someone here is touting the idea of ADHD meds being this solution, all these people are just undiagnosed, there’s an unfair stigma against, and I feel compelled to bring up that I bought into that thinking, got a legit diagnosis and took meds as prescribed, they triggered mania in me and nearly ruined my life. I tick all the ADHD boxes but I managed to make it through college without meds so never should have started. Psychiatry is broken and handing out prescription amphetamines to everyone who can’t focus is as bad as an idea as it initially sounds.
Inception 6y ago
> For that matter, it is also crazy that we don't start giving children coffee at younger ages to help focus — since there are no known negative effects. Might as well, we already load them up with sugar, which does have known side-effects. Sarcasm aside, maybe not a direct negative side effect, but if you suffer from poor sleep, drinking too much coffee or drinking coffee too late in the day has correlation and lack of sleep certainly has negative side-effect. Personally, I'll keep my kids off coffee and other drugs until they're old enough to buy it themselves.
jm4 6y ago
In some cultures it's common to give kids coffee. My parents didn't give me coffee when I was a kid but my wife's parents started giving it to her at an early age. My kids both drink coffee. My older one started on black coffee when he was 2. It's just a routine part of his day. Coffee at breakfast and then at cafecito in the afternoon.
- ytwySXpMbS 6y ago
  Coffee has been shown to reduce the length and quality of REM sleep, which is very important for early brain development. Read the relevant section in ‘Why We Sleep’ and you may change your mind.
winter_blue 6y ago
> You know what's totally nuts? Taking Amphetamine daily for years in reasonable doses essentially has no long term negative effects. In that way, similar to coffee. Wow, that is truly amazing. I'm glad to learn about that. I notice a slight depression if I stop taking my ADHD meds for a few days (perhaps up to a week), but after that I'm back to my old (ADHD-driven) self. So in a sense, it's not addictive at all. The depression can tempt one to get back on it, but that's about it. One side effect of Adderall though is ED, and it's pretty bad. I guess it depends on the person, but for me, the ED was quite bad. The ED does go away after getting off of it.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > So in a sense, it's not addictive at all. You definitely have a withdrawal from adderall. A few days (up to a week) is typical of most drug withdrawals.
- shajznnckfke 6y ago
  > One side effect of Adderall though is ED, and it's pretty bad. I guess it depends on the person, but for me, the ED was quite bad. The ED does go away after getting off of it. The drugs for that are very easy to get these days - you can get a prescription online by taking a survey and the pills will be mailed to you without ever talking to a human.
  - olyjohn 6y ago
    They are also ridiculously expensive.
    - shajznnckfke 6y ago
      The big popular ones that advertise (Hims and Roman) are very overpriced. I found Blink Health sells a generic version for much cheaper ($2 a pill).
  - winter_blue 6y ago
    Well, the drugs for ED (e.g. Sildenafil) are quite bad / not really good for your health. It's probably a lot better in the long-run to use exercise as a cure for ADHD. (Instead of slamming your system with drugs upon drugs. With one drug taken to mitigate another's side effects, etc.)
gameswithgo 6y ago
increased impulsiveness and sleep quality are know negative impacts
didibus 6y ago
Some children are given coke, pepsi, mountain due or other soda drinks with high caffeine content.
- monkpit 6y ago
  > Most Ok
  - didibus 6y ago
    Fair point, I have no idea of the real numbers, so I edited to say "some". My point was more to say that there are other beverages and foods with high caffeine contents, so when you take them all into account, there's probably more children being given caffeine then we think.
- olyjohn 6y ago
  None of those drinks have anywhere near the caffeine of coffee, though. An energy drink of some kind probably does though.
  - jiofih 6y ago
    That’s not true. ~100mg in a cup of coffee, 40mg in an espresso shot, the same 40mg in a can of Coca-Cola (and ~60mg in Diet Coke).
    - smileybarry 6y ago
      Caffeine in an espresso shot (and conversely one cappuccino) is ~63-77mg[1], and one can of Coca-Cola & Diet is 32mg & 42mg[2]. [1] Nespresso is 63mg (5g of coffee), "average" espresso is 77mg (7g of coffee) https://www.caffeineinformer.com/caffeine-content/espresso https://www.caffeineinformer.com/caffeine-content/espresso [2] https://www.coca-cola.co.uk/ingredients/caffeine/the-caffeine-in-your-can https://www.coca-cola.co.uk/ingredients/caffeine/the-caffein...
      - didibus 6y ago
muxamilian 6y ago
I drank coffee for several years (around 4 cups a day, not later than 4pm) and suffered from insomnia and didn’t know the origin. Since I stopped caffeine intake, my insomnia is basically gone and I feel a lot more functional because of better sleep. So my impression (yeah I have to admit it’s a study of size 1) is rather that caffeine is more dangerous than I thought.
- charliemil4 6y ago
  I wonder what it means if I can drink 4 espressos before bed and sleep like a baby... does anyone have research on caffeine metabolisms and ADHD / other diagnoses?
  - toyg 6y ago
    Not everyone is the same. I have heard of drug addicts who could only drop heroin by replacing it with massive amounts of highly-caffeinated energy drinks, in quantities that would be objectively bad for most regular folks.
    - charliemil4 6y ago
      Wow that explains a friend’s monster energy intake
    - nullsense 6y ago
      I only managed to drop drinking a shit tonne of Red Bull once I started Ritalin.
  - muxamilian 6y ago
    Yeah I know several people who tell me the same like you... Again not proper science but it seems that caffeine tolerance and metabolism is quite different from person to person.
LordFred 6y ago
Ok, I'll try to jump in here. a) There are downsides to coffee. I know of a clinical neurologist (Steve Novella) who, when working with a patient with chronic headaches, will always ask "how much coffee do you drink." Always remember, if a "medicine" is doing good, it will have side effects. Period. Note that homeopaths simply love going on about how homeopathy doesn't have any side effects - spoiler, that's because it's not actually doing anything at a physical level. b) Yes, daily use of stimulants in people with ADHD has been show to be pretty much ok. In fact, there are studies showing that kids who are not medicated are more likely to end up as substance abusers, largely because they're self medicating (remember, drug abuse is a symptom++). However, the kids who were treated with stimulants? No more risk than their neuro-typical peers. c) The above says NOTHING WHATSOEVER about neuro-typicals taking it daily. ++ Source: my partner, currently doing her neuro-psych masters on addiction.

kqr 6y ago

> You know what's totally nuts? Taking Amphetamine daily for years in reasonable doses essentially has no long term negative effects. In that way, similar to coffee. This is a null hypothesis that hasn't been refuted due to lack of evidence, and not an alternative hypothesis that has been proven by evidence, right? I ask because I've been looking into this before, and from what I remember there was virtually no evidence on long term use in reasonable amounts. (There is evidence on short term use in reasonable amounts, and long term use in unreasonable amounts, though.)

dr_dshiv 6y ago
Well, it's scientifically difficult to randomly assign people and assess effects for multiple decades. So the ideal evidence won't be available. But if we accept a "nutrition science" level of evidence, then I'd say there is strong evidence showing the naturalistic longterm use of adhd meds is not dangerous. Especially considering our baysian prior: a person off the street would estimate far stronger negative effects of taking speed every single day. In fact, adhd meds are correlated with healthier outcomes (of course, huge selection effects. Yes, eating kale will be associated with increased health, but it isn't causal) Here is the best recent review that I know of: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924977X12001988?casa_token=JTFfFAAPMioAAAAA:CmPJ3Prrcnw3XctpMa-W-ZtKvg7-dhI37Jo4BjBRKIDgLPXi1c6-JGrcuWmAHUMZkJLd2-Smn0Q https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924977X1... I'd love to know your take.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > In fact, adhd meds are correlated with healthier outcomes (of course, huge selection effects. Yes, eating kale will be associated with increased health, but it isn't causal) Yeah, I'd say p much impossible to untangle there without experimental evidence.

acituan 6y ago

> we don't start giving children coffee at younger ages to help focus > we are inhibiting our full potential because of misplaced fears? I'll argue with the assumption that there is zero long term psychobiological consequences to exogenous psychostimulants (I personally don't buy this, but let's assume it was true). Increasing focus and task salience is only one of the many factors constitutive of human potential. They never give the answer for what to focus on, or whether a task is worth it or not, and rob the person of the opportunity for developing frustration tolerance. They turn people into indiscriminate doing machines, with little wisdom to guide it. Makes one think if prescription amphetamines being as widespread among plumbers as software engineers is truly a coincidence. I will argue this is because our bioeconomics, our not wanting to do things is also part of our wisdom machinery. Having used for half a decade myself, I can spot some collogues who are on amphetamines; unnecessarily assertive, obsessed with orderliness of code, constantly in need of refactoring, huge bias for action with diminished wisdom to temper it (Well, also pees a lot.). There is a reason they are not being used by fighter pilots anymore because they can get too cocky and make decisions that kill their own. No wonder everything looks like a good idea when your brain is swimming in dopamine and norepinephrine, but when everything looks like a good idea, how do you find what is the right thing to do in the medium/long term? Is that really the human potential? I would argue far from it. I think it is just enhancing the potential for a particular job description that requires you to sit on your bum all day and plumb boring stuff someone else tells you to.

justinko 6y ago
I’ve read a lot of comments around amphetamines. This is probably my favorite. Amps turn you into a drone. Any perceived benefit is met with equal or greater detriment.
sam1r 6y ago
+1 thanks for this
ditonal 6y ago
Feels like every week someone here is touting the idea of ADHD meds being this solution, all these people are just undiagnosed, there’s an unfair stigma against, and I feel compelled to bring up that I bought into that thinking, got a legit diagnosis and took meds as prescribed, they triggered mania in me and nearly ruined my life. I tick all the ADHD boxes but I managed to make it through college without meds so never should have started. Psychiatry is broken and handing out prescription amphetamines to everyone who can’t focus is as bad as an idea as it initially sounds.

Inception 6y ago

> For that matter, it is also crazy that we don't start giving children coffee at younger ages to help focus — since there are no known negative effects. Might as well, we already load them up with sugar, which does have known side-effects. Sarcasm aside, maybe not a direct negative side effect, but if you suffer from poor sleep, drinking too much coffee or drinking coffee too late in the day has correlation and lack of sleep certainly has negative side-effect. Personally, I'll keep my kids off coffee and other drugs until they're old enough to buy it themselves.

jm4 6y ago

In some cultures it's common to give kids coffee. My parents didn't give me coffee when I was a kid but my wife's parents started giving it to her at an early age. My kids both drink coffee. My older one started on black coffee when he was 2. It's just a routine part of his day. Coffee at breakfast and then at cafecito in the afternoon.

ytwySXpMbS 6y ago
Coffee has been shown to reduce the length and quality of REM sleep, which is very important for early brain development. Read the relevant section in ‘Why We Sleep’ and you may change your mind.

winter_blue 6y ago

> You know what's totally nuts? Taking Amphetamine daily for years in reasonable doses essentially has no long term negative effects. In that way, similar to coffee. Wow, that is truly amazing. I'm glad to learn about that. I notice a slight depression if I stop taking my ADHD meds for a few days (perhaps up to a week), but after that I'm back to my old (ADHD-driven) self. So in a sense, it's not addictive at all. The depression can tempt one to get back on it, but that's about it. One side effect of Adderall though is ED, and it's pretty bad. I guess it depends on the person, but for me, the ED was quite bad. The ED does go away after getting off of it.

whimsicalism 6y ago
> So in a sense, it's not addictive at all. You definitely have a withdrawal from adderall. A few days (up to a week) is typical of most drug withdrawals.
shajznnckfke 6y ago
> One side effect of Adderall though is ED, and it's pretty bad. I guess it depends on the person, but for me, the ED was quite bad. The ED does go away after getting off of it. The drugs for that are very easy to get these days - you can get a prescription online by taking a survey and the pills will be mailed to you without ever talking to a human.
- olyjohn 6y ago
  They are also ridiculously expensive.
  - shajznnckfke 6y ago
    The big popular ones that advertise (Hims and Roman) are very overpriced. I found Blink Health sells a generic version for much cheaper ($2 a pill).
- winter_blue 6y ago
  Well, the drugs for ED (e.g. Sildenafil) are quite bad / not really good for your health. It's probably a lot better in the long-run to use exercise as a cure for ADHD. (Instead of slamming your system with drugs upon drugs. With one drug taken to mitigate another's side effects, etc.)

gameswithgo 6y ago

increased impulsiveness and sleep quality are know negative impacts

didibus 6y ago

Some children are given coke, pepsi, mountain due or other soda drinks with high caffeine content.

monkpit 6y ago
> Most Ok
- didibus 6y ago
  Fair point, I have no idea of the real numbers, so I edited to say "some". My point was more to say that there are other beverages and foods with high caffeine contents, so when you take them all into account, there's probably more children being given caffeine then we think.
olyjohn 6y ago
None of those drinks have anywhere near the caffeine of coffee, though. An energy drink of some kind probably does though.
- jiofih 6y ago
  That’s not true. ~100mg in a cup of coffee, 40mg in an espresso shot, the same 40mg in a can of Coca-Cola (and ~60mg in Diet Coke).
  - smileybarry 6y ago
    Caffeine in an espresso shot (and conversely one cappuccino) is ~63-77mg[1], and one can of Coca-Cola & Diet is 32mg & 42mg[2]. [1] Nespresso is 63mg (5g of coffee), "average" espresso is 77mg (7g of coffee) https://www.caffeineinformer.com/caffeine-content/espresso https://www.caffeineinformer.com/caffeine-content/espresso [2] https://www.coca-cola.co.uk/ingredients/caffeine/the-caffeine-in-your-can https://www.coca-cola.co.uk/ingredients/caffeine/the-caffein...
    - didibus 6y ago

muxamilian 6y ago

I drank coffee for several years (around 4 cups a day, not later than 4pm) and suffered from insomnia and didn’t know the origin. Since I stopped caffeine intake, my insomnia is basically gone and I feel a lot more functional because of better sleep. So my impression (yeah I have to admit it’s a study of size 1) is rather that caffeine is more dangerous than I thought.

charliemil4 6y ago
I wonder what it means if I can drink 4 espressos before bed and sleep like a baby... does anyone have research on caffeine metabolisms and ADHD / other diagnoses?
- toyg 6y ago
  Not everyone is the same. I have heard of drug addicts who could only drop heroin by replacing it with massive amounts of highly-caffeinated energy drinks, in quantities that would be objectively bad for most regular folks.
  - charliemil4 6y ago
    Wow that explains a friend’s monster energy intake
  - nullsense 6y ago
    I only managed to drop drinking a shit tonne of Red Bull once I started Ritalin.
- muxamilian 6y ago
  Yeah I know several people who tell me the same like you... Again not proper science but it seems that caffeine tolerance and metabolism is quite different from person to person.

LordFred 6y ago

Ok, I'll try to jump in here. a) There are downsides to coffee. I know of a clinical neurologist (Steve Novella) who, when working with a patient with chronic headaches, will always ask "how much coffee do you drink." Always remember, if a "medicine" is doing good, it will have side effects. Period. Note that homeopaths simply love going on about how homeopathy doesn't have any side effects - spoiler, that's because it's not actually doing anything at a physical level. b) Yes, daily use of stimulants in people with ADHD has been show to be pretty much ok. In fact, there are studies showing that kids who are not medicated are more likely to end up as substance abusers, largely because they're self medicating (remember, drug abuse is a symptom++). However, the kids who were treated with stimulants? No more risk than their neuro-typical peers. c) The above says NOTHING WHATSOEVER about neuro-typicals taking it daily. ++ Source: my partner, currently doing her neuro-psych masters on addiction.