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This is going to be a big mess. PayTM as a company isn’t known for respecting user privacy. The CEO’s brother was caught in a sting video saying they could sell

by wtmt 6y ago

This is going to be a big mess. PayTM as a company isn’t known for respecting user privacy. The CEO’s brother was caught in a sting video saying they could sell any user’s information for a price (search online and you’ll find the video). All that these Indian startups care is for them to benefit and control everything. It’s not about equitable treatment. It’s more about regulatory capture and making sure that their apps somehow become pre-installed on devices. As for the government’s apps being pre-installed, one couldn’t ask for worse things. The COVID-19 contact tracing app, Aarogya Setu, needs location and Bluetooth access all the time “to help the user.” You can imagine what a bunch of such apps can do. If you think I’m being hyperbolic, just wait for Reliance Jio to announce its own App Store as the first one. It’ll come with the full force of the government behind it (who in a government wouldn’t love a telecom and network provider that loves slurping all data and is against end to end encryption when it’s done by other competing apps like WhatsApp?) I feel bad for all the poorer people who already are forced to buy cheap Android phones that don’t get updates and are loaded with crapware and what not. As much as I despise Google for tracking users, I believe Google will look like a saint in front of these companies.

raghavtoshniwal 6y ago
It would be messy for sure but there is somewhat precedence for it. WeChat operates its own AppStores and is subservient to the CCP. 'Running' your own AppStore is forbidden in the iOS terms of service but when you have the might of a billion people, some rules are okay to be broken.
- simonh 6y ago
  WeChat mini-programs don't actually run as native code on the phone though. They're much more like web apps running on the WeChat back end, with WecChat acting as a browser to access them. Roblox does a similar thing, with interactive games from third parties running on the Roblox servers in the virtual environment. A third party app store where you install native code apps on the phone, directly accessing phone OS services and consuming local resources is a completely different thing, right?
  - m-p-3 6y ago
    The same thing could be said of game streaming apps like Stadia (all the game code is running remotely) but are forbidden in the App Store. It's hard to take Apple seriously when they do shit like this.
    - vlovich123 6y ago
      They aren’t forbidden anymore. [1] It is weird they’re making it so that each game you’ve bought needs a separate App Store entry, especially since the local code is all the same and a thin shim. That being said, the same rules are in effect for Apple’s own game platform so maybe there’s a specific reason (eg uniform experience for any app, they can properly promote individual titles in the App Store instead of allowing walled gardens within its platform that it can’t see into. https://www.engadget.com/apple-app-store-google-stadia-xcloud-microsoft-171436934.html https://www.engadget.com/apple-app-store-google-stadia-xclou...
      - amaccuish 6y ago
        The point is, WeChat doesn't have to offer separate apps for their mini programs in the AppStore. But Facebook was blocked from doing a similar thing for games.
      - powerapple 6y ago
        I am sure Roblox is not having each of their mini games as a separate entry in App Store. I guess as long as Apple is getting 30% cut from your subscription fee.
        vlovich123 6y ago
        Are Roblox mini games purchased individually? With Stadia/xplay you have your subscription which covers server costs but then you also buy each game individually. That could be the difference here.
      - derefr 6y ago
        I think it’s so app-level device-management policy features can be applied to the content of these services at a per-game granular level. Having each game as its own app means each game gets its own app-store age rating; its own star-rating, reviews, and install metrics; its own parental-control settings (e.g. screen time limits); its own corporate MDM blacklist-ability; and the ability for Apple to block that individual game from being installable, either temporarily because it’s breaking App Store policy, or permanently within some country whose regime doesn’t allow it. Also, Apple haven’t mentioned exactly how they’re implementing this just yet, but I would guess that the game streaming services are going to be required to have each client version paired 1:1 with a particular release of the streamed game, such that you must update the app to connect to an updated streaming backend. This would put Apple’s App Store review team back in the critical path for approving changes in app content.
singularity2001 6y ago
At least we get a choice whether we want our privacy violated by CCP, silicon-NSA complex, or Indian aristocracy
- zepto 6y ago
  What choice? All of these are mandatory.
  - bilbo0s 6y ago
    Yeah, I'm not sure a lot of people see what's about to happen here. Many here seem to believe this will open up opportunities for them to start app stores. It won't. It will open up opportunities for governments around the world to do what they've been contemplating for a long time. Part of which is to specifically preclude you from opening an app store in their jurisdiction.
    - zepto 6y ago
      Right - we currently have a quasi duopoly which frankly won’t last a decade if people are willing to compete with it. Both companies are showing signs of ossification. If governments get involved, we’ll have a government monopoly and government regulated software sales forever.
      - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        That obviously depends on which governments and what the governments do. A US antitrust ruling that Apple can't constrain the user from installing apps from competing stores while Apple is still selling the device and not loading it up with crapware by default is very different than a requirement from China or India to install the government's store as root on everybody's phone from the factory. The difference being that you choose which stores you trust instead of having them imposed on you against your will.
        zepto 6y ago
colejohnson66 6y ago
> This is going to be a big mess. PayTM as a company isn’t known for respecting user privacy. Controversial opinion here, but this is part of the reason I like that Apple makes (practically) all purchases run through them. They don’t sell my information, and they have an incentive to not change that.
- higerordermap 6y ago
  Yeah, but apple devices are affordable for 0.1% of Indians. Also, Android is not to be blamed here. The openness is why privacy-minded people can use F-Droid.
  - sgt 6y ago
    As someone in Kenya pointed out to me once, I asked someone (at Safaricom, their biggest tech company) why Kenyans seemed to prefer Android. He laughed and said: We don't prefer Android, it's what we can afford. I suppose coming from my first world bubble of friends of family it's reality check.
    - smabie 6y ago
      I've spent a lot of time in Tanzania and Kenya and when someone makes some money, the first thing they buy is an iPhone.
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    Fair enough. But my comment was directed more just in general due to Epic v. Apple.
- monokh 6y ago
  On the flip side, they become the central honey pot for every apple user ever. Most of whom sit generally further along the wealthy/important person scale. Incredibly high incentives there for exploit. The high stakes should translate to proportionate attention? One can only hope.
- reader_mode 6y ago
r73ydhdh 6y ago
It seems really out of touch to simultaneously acknowledge the struggling poor while also demonizing a practice that allows them to be showered in free services despite their poverty. People have bigger issues than digital privacy and frankly if the American approach is so lucrative then Indian app developers will gravitate towards American practices anyway. Who knows though, maybe the EU will finally come back from their their lunch breaks and show the world an even better (in the real way) monetization model.
econcon 6y ago
Modi couldn't ban alibaba let alone Google play store. India today has no eBay equivalent or even Alibaba or Taobao equivalent, without these I don't see b2b or even exports growing much. eBay used to be the only way to find stuff like rare metal, or niche tools and spare parts.

by wtmt 6y ago

raghavtoshniwal 6y ago

It would be messy for sure but there is somewhat precedence for it. WeChat operates its own AppStores and is subservient to the CCP. 'Running' your own AppStore is forbidden in the iOS terms of service but when you have the might of a billion people, some rules are okay to be broken.

simonh 6y ago
WeChat mini-programs don't actually run as native code on the phone though. They're much more like web apps running on the WeChat back end, with WecChat acting as a browser to access them. Roblox does a similar thing, with interactive games from third parties running on the Roblox servers in the virtual environment. A third party app store where you install native code apps on the phone, directly accessing phone OS services and consuming local resources is a completely different thing, right?
- m-p-3 6y ago
  The same thing could be said of game streaming apps like Stadia (all the game code is running remotely) but are forbidden in the App Store. It's hard to take Apple seriously when they do shit like this.
  - vlovich123 6y ago
    They aren’t forbidden anymore. [1] It is weird they’re making it so that each game you’ve bought needs a separate App Store entry, especially since the local code is all the same and a thin shim. That being said, the same rules are in effect for Apple’s own game platform so maybe there’s a specific reason (eg uniform experience for any app, they can properly promote individual titles in the App Store instead of allowing walled gardens within its platform that it can’t see into. https://www.engadget.com/apple-app-store-google-stadia-xcloud-microsoft-171436934.html https://www.engadget.com/apple-app-store-google-stadia-xclou...
    - amaccuish 6y ago
      The point is, WeChat doesn't have to offer separate apps for their mini programs in the AppStore. But Facebook was blocked from doing a similar thing for games.
    - powerapple 6y ago
      I am sure Roblox is not having each of their mini games as a separate entry in App Store. I guess as long as Apple is getting 30% cut from your subscription fee.
      - vlovich123 6y ago
        Are Roblox mini games purchased individually? With Stadia/xplay you have your subscription which covers server costs but then you also buy each game individually. That could be the difference here.
    - derefr 6y ago
      I think it’s so app-level device-management policy features can be applied to the content of these services at a per-game granular level. Having each game as its own app means each game gets its own app-store age rating; its own star-rating, reviews, and install metrics; its own parental-control settings (e.g. screen time limits); its own corporate MDM blacklist-ability; and the ability for Apple to block that individual game from being installable, either temporarily because it’s breaking App Store policy, or permanently within some country whose regime doesn’t allow it. Also, Apple haven’t mentioned exactly how they’re implementing this just yet, but I would guess that the game streaming services are going to be required to have each client version paired 1:1 with a particular release of the streamed game, such that you must update the app to connect to an updated streaming backend. This would put Apple’s App Store review team back in the critical path for approving changes in app content.

singularity2001 6y ago

At least we get a choice whether we want our privacy violated by CCP, silicon-NSA complex, or Indian aristocracy

zepto 6y ago
What choice? All of these are mandatory.
- bilbo0s 6y ago
  Yeah, I'm not sure a lot of people see what's about to happen here. Many here seem to believe this will open up opportunities for them to start app stores. It won't. It will open up opportunities for governments around the world to do what they've been contemplating for a long time. Part of which is to specifically preclude you from opening an app store in their jurisdiction.
  - zepto 6y ago
    Right - we currently have a quasi duopoly which frankly won’t last a decade if people are willing to compete with it. Both companies are showing signs of ossification. If governments get involved, we’ll have a government monopoly and government regulated software sales forever.
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      That obviously depends on which governments and what the governments do. A US antitrust ruling that Apple can't constrain the user from installing apps from competing stores while Apple is still selling the device and not loading it up with crapware by default is very different than a requirement from China or India to install the government's store as root on everybody's phone from the factory. The difference being that you choose which stores you trust instead of having them imposed on you against your will.
      - zepto 6y ago

colejohnson66 6y ago

> This is going to be a big mess. PayTM as a company isn’t known for respecting user privacy. Controversial opinion here, but this is part of the reason I like that Apple makes (practically) all purchases run through them. They don’t sell my information, and they have an incentive to not change that.

higerordermap 6y ago
Yeah, but apple devices are affordable for 0.1% of Indians. Also, Android is not to be blamed here. The openness is why privacy-minded people can use F-Droid.
- sgt 6y ago
  As someone in Kenya pointed out to me once, I asked someone (at Safaricom, their biggest tech company) why Kenyans seemed to prefer Android. He laughed and said: We don't prefer Android, it's what we can afford. I suppose coming from my first world bubble of friends of family it's reality check.
  - smabie 6y ago
    I've spent a lot of time in Tanzania and Kenya and when someone makes some money, the first thing they buy is an iPhone.
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  Fair enough. But my comment was directed more just in general due to Epic v. Apple.
monokh 6y ago
On the flip side, they become the central honey pot for every apple user ever. Most of whom sit generally further along the wealthy/important person scale. Incredibly high incentives there for exploit. The high stakes should translate to proportionate attention? One can only hope.
reader_mode 6y ago

r73ydhdh 6y ago

It seems really out of touch to simultaneously acknowledge the struggling poor while also demonizing a practice that allows them to be showered in free services despite their poverty. People have bigger issues than digital privacy and frankly if the American approach is so lucrative then Indian app developers will gravitate towards American practices anyway. Who knows though, maybe the EU will finally come back from their their lunch breaks and show the world an even better (in the real way) monetization model.

econcon 6y ago

Modi couldn't ban alibaba let alone Google play store. India today has no eBay equivalent or even Alibaba or Taobao equivalent, without these I don't see b2b or even exports growing much. eBay used to be the only way to find stuff like rare metal, or niche tools and spare parts.