6 ms·

His solution is a vague sentence at the end: > Solving it will require a broad shift in an American culture that celebrates the accumulation of wealth and too

His solution is a vague sentence at the end: > Solving it will require a broad shift in an American culture that celebrates the accumulation of wealth and too often turns a blind eye to — or even glorifies — the success of the white-collar criminal. Food for thought: what does the phrase "law and order" mean to you? Does it mean to aggressively prosecute all crimes, or certain more visible crimes? I don't think I've ever seen the phrase "law and order" applied to white collar criminals.

heavenlyblue 6y ago
I think there’s a lot of culture “we have to do it this way because the real world is frightening and complex and therefore you have to be dodgy to succeed”. We need real conservatives today. With a strong outlook for the future. Not the 60-year-old pant-shitters given up on the ideas our society was built upon.
- avmich 6y ago
  > We need real conservatives today. Conservatism as an idea is morally deficient. We live in a changing world, especially at some periods, and what we need is adaptation of agreements to new ways of life propelled by increasing possibilities, from tech and quality of life. There are places for conservatism, stemming from slowly changing human nature, but for now it looks more like an exception than the rule. Popular vision of conservatism is hardly defendable today. Real - real - conservatives today would be progressives. AOC, Sanders, this kind. Not because they propose sticking with non-working mechanisms - they don't - but because they correctly see the ideas, intents of rules proposed for society - at times when changes weren't that stark. Edit: this is an opinion.
  - sawjet 6y ago
    There is nothing wrong with being conservative or having conservative ideas.
    - avmich 6y ago
      It looks like having conservative ideas is somewhat similar to having ideas that e.g. the Earth is flat. Surely, one can think whatever he wants, but from such thinking one can have more mistakes than otherwise. There is no justification to many thought platforms - but that doesn't mean they can't be wrong.
      - heavenlyblue 6y ago
        Well, no. Anti-vaxxers are for example primarily liberal, because they believe that it’s the establishment that is trying to control them. Vaccination is actually a pretty conservative option politically.
cheph 6y ago
> I don't think I've ever seen the phrase "law and order" applied to white collar criminals. Well normally it is applied when one side in a politically charged issue is running cover for some crime and the other side wants to highlight this. I'm not sure who provides cover for white-collar criminals - but I'm sure once you find them you will soon hear the phrase law-and-order coming from the opposing political side.
pjc50 6y ago
"law and order" to me means ramping up the brutality of the response to crime, and non-criminal nuisance, largely for its own sake. It's about the imposition of order, and the spectacle of policing, not the actual crime level as reported in any statistics. The notorious "repetitive beats" section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Justice_and_Public_Order_Act_1994 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Justice_and_Public_Or... is the kind of thing I mean; rave culture involved fairly minor crimes, trespass and noise pollution, but because it annoyed the rural middle class there was huge demand for a clampdown.
- frequentnapper 6y ago
  "annoyed" is a rather dismissive way to phrase it. I'm a light sleeper and it would be torture to me at night and would affect my quality of life tremendously. I wouldn't be able to focus on family or work if I couldn't get good quality sleep.
  - gtvwill 6y ago
    Lol settle down there precious, pretty sure after the first week you'll get tired enough you'll sleep through anything. Hot tip probably don't ever have kids hey you won't be able to handle it.
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  A nuisance is non criminal when it's something you personally like, even if it hurts abroad swath of society?
js2 6y ago
The operative word in "law and order" always ends up being order, not law. Law ends up used selectively to enforce order. White collar criminals aren't disrupting the order of things, so no need to prosecute them. In America, the correct phrase should be "rule of law." Under a "rule of law" society, white collar criminals would be prosecuted. As to aggressively, no, not necessarily. Predictably and fairly are much more important. > Many conceptions of the Rule of Law place great emphasis on legal certainty, predictability, and settlement, on the determinacy of the norms that are upheld in society, and on the reliable character of their administration by the state. Citizens—it is said—need predictability in the conduct of their lives and businesses. There may be no getting away from legal constraint in the circumstances of modern life, but freedom is possible nevertheless if people know in advance how the law will operate and how they have to act if they are to avoid its having a detrimental impact on their affairs. Knowing in advance how the law will operate enables one to plan around its requirements. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1273005 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1273005
ponker 6y ago
Perhaps a good microcosm is the Las Vegas Strip. Street crime is extremely low on the Strip and nearby — muggings, car breakins, etc. That’s because the guys who run the most lucrative rackets in town, the casinos, simply don’t permit street thugs to ply their trade on the Strip — if you try to embark on a career as a petty criminal on the Strip, you’ll quickly find yourself in a dark basement with a guy whose neck is thicker than your thigh. The country operates on the same principle — the “criminals” who get punished are the guys who sow chaos and disrupt the real racket in town, which is Corporatism.

heavenlyblue 6y ago

I think there’s a lot of culture “we have to do it this way because the real world is frightening and complex and therefore you have to be dodgy to succeed”. We need real conservatives today. With a strong outlook for the future. Not the 60-year-old pant-shitters given up on the ideas our society was built upon.

avmich 6y ago
> We need real conservatives today. Conservatism as an idea is morally deficient. We live in a changing world, especially at some periods, and what we need is adaptation of agreements to new ways of life propelled by increasing possibilities, from tech and quality of life. There are places for conservatism, stemming from slowly changing human nature, but for now it looks more like an exception than the rule. Popular vision of conservatism is hardly defendable today. Real - real - conservatives today would be progressives. AOC, Sanders, this kind. Not because they propose sticking with non-working mechanisms - they don't - but because they correctly see the ideas, intents of rules proposed for society - at times when changes weren't that stark. Edit: this is an opinion.
- sawjet 6y ago
  There is nothing wrong with being conservative or having conservative ideas.
  - avmich 6y ago
    It looks like having conservative ideas is somewhat similar to having ideas that e.g. the Earth is flat. Surely, one can think whatever he wants, but from such thinking one can have more mistakes than otherwise. There is no justification to many thought platforms - but that doesn't mean they can't be wrong.
    - heavenlyblue 6y ago
      Well, no. Anti-vaxxers are for example primarily liberal, because they believe that it’s the establishment that is trying to control them. Vaccination is actually a pretty conservative option politically.

cheph 6y ago

> I don't think I've ever seen the phrase "law and order" applied to white collar criminals. Well normally it is applied when one side in a politically charged issue is running cover for some crime and the other side wants to highlight this. I'm not sure who provides cover for white-collar criminals - but I'm sure once you find them you will soon hear the phrase law-and-order coming from the opposing political side.

pjc50 6y ago

"law and order" to me means ramping up the brutality of the response to crime, and non-criminal nuisance, largely for its own sake. It's about the imposition of order, and the spectacle of policing, not the actual crime level as reported in any statistics. The notorious "repetitive beats" section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Justice_and_Public_Order_Act_1994 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Justice_and_Public_Or... is the kind of thing I mean; rave culture involved fairly minor crimes, trespass and noise pollution, but because it annoyed the rural middle class there was huge demand for a clampdown.

frequentnapper 6y ago
"annoyed" is a rather dismissive way to phrase it. I'm a light sleeper and it would be torture to me at night and would affect my quality of life tremendously. I wouldn't be able to focus on family or work if I couldn't get good quality sleep.
- gtvwill 6y ago
  Lol settle down there precious, pretty sure after the first week you'll get tired enough you'll sleep through anything. Hot tip probably don't ever have kids hey you won't be able to handle it.
srtjstjsj 6y ago
A nuisance is non criminal when it's something you personally like, even if it hurts abroad swath of society?

js2 6y ago

The operative word in "law and order" always ends up being order, not law. Law ends up used selectively to enforce order. White collar criminals aren't disrupting the order of things, so no need to prosecute them. In America, the correct phrase should be "rule of law." Under a "rule of law" society, white collar criminals would be prosecuted. As to aggressively, no, not necessarily. Predictably and fairly are much more important. > Many conceptions of the Rule of Law place great emphasis on legal certainty, predictability, and settlement, on the determinacy of the norms that are upheld in society, and on the reliable character of their administration by the state. Citizens—it is said—need predictability in the conduct of their lives and businesses. There may be no getting away from legal constraint in the circumstances of modern life, but freedom is possible nevertheless if people know in advance how the law will operate and how they have to act if they are to avoid its having a detrimental impact on their affairs. Knowing in advance how the law will operate enables one to plan around its requirements. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1273005 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1273005

ponker 6y ago

Perhaps a good microcosm is the Las Vegas Strip. Street crime is extremely low on the Strip and nearby — muggings, car breakins, etc. That’s because the guys who run the most lucrative rackets in town, the casinos, simply don’t permit street thugs to ply their trade on the Strip — if you try to embark on a career as a petty criminal on the Strip, you’ll quickly find yourself in a dark basement with a guy whose neck is thicker than your thigh. The country operates on the same principle — the “criminals” who get punished are the guys who sow chaos and disrupt the real racket in town, which is Corporatism.