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I don’t think OP’s post was in good faith but I actually do think this is an interesting discussion! A lot of conspiracy theory and white supremacism thrives in

by untog 6y ago

I don’t think OP’s post was in good faith but I actually do think this is an interesting discussion! A lot of conspiracy theory and white supremacism thrives in places like private WhatsApp groups. I don’t think that means we have to remove all privacy but it is interesting to consider the trade offs involved.

sokoloff 6y ago
As abhorrent as I find white supremacy groups, I don’t see any real trade off that I’m willing to make to reduce even a tiny amount of the privacy and security of communications to give government better power or means to police these groups. I find private communications so sacrosanct that I’m willing to allow even the most vile form of private communications to remain private rather than sacrifice the privacy of all to aid government in policing the outliers.
- kingkawn 6y ago
  Absolutism is a common sight seeing stop off on the road to regret
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” We can trade quips all day, probably.
    - kingkawn 6y ago
      Not if the Nazis takeover we can’t
- alistairSH 6y ago
  sokoloff is right. This is why warrants exist. If those private conversations turn towards criminal action, then the government can take action. Until then, there is nothing to act upon - speech is "free".
  - dmurray 6y ago
    I think sokoloff is going further than you: he thinks private conversations should be "sacrosanct", you seem to think they should be intercepted by anyone who suspects they "turn towards criminal action" and can reach the low bar of obtaining a warrant.
    - alistairSH 6y ago
      That bar is currently too low (FISA and all the other post-9/11 nonsense), IMO, but generally, yes.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  A tradeoff that needs supporting. How dangerous are the outliers? How have societies fared, that took this trade? Is the absolutism justified ("sacrifice the privacy of all")?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    What are we talking about concretely? Is “the west” an example of a privacy absolutist civilization? Or does one have to abolish things like warrants as well?

by untog 6y ago

sokoloff 6y ago

As abhorrent as I find white supremacy groups, I don’t see any real trade off that I’m willing to make to reduce even a tiny amount of the privacy and security of communications to give government better power or means to police these groups. I find private communications so sacrosanct that I’m willing to allow even the most vile form of private communications to remain private rather than sacrifice the privacy of all to aid government in policing the outliers.

kingkawn 6y ago
Absolutism is a common sight seeing stop off on the road to regret
- sokoloff 6y ago
  “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” We can trade quips all day, probably.
  - kingkawn 6y ago
    Not if the Nazis takeover we can’t
alistairSH 6y ago
sokoloff is right. This is why warrants exist. If those private conversations turn towards criminal action, then the government can take action. Until then, there is nothing to act upon - speech is "free".
- dmurray 6y ago
  I think sokoloff is going further than you: he thinks private conversations should be "sacrosanct", you seem to think they should be intercepted by anyone who suspects they "turn towards criminal action" and can reach the low bar of obtaining a warrant.
  - alistairSH 6y ago
    That bar is currently too low (FISA and all the other post-9/11 nonsense), IMO, but generally, yes.
JoeAltmaier 6y ago
A tradeoff that needs supporting. How dangerous are the outliers? How have societies fared, that took this trade? Is the absolutism justified ("sacrifice the privacy of all")?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  What are we talking about concretely? Is “the west” an example of a privacy absolutist civilization? Or does one have to abolish things like warrants as well?