4 ms·

It took MANY decades before transmission lines, power generation and brokerage were forcibly separated and regulated. They traditionally were integrated, even

It took MANY decades before transmission lines, power generation and brokerage were forcibly separated and regulated. They traditionally were integrated, even through the 1980s in some countries. Utility regulation only works when the product doesn’t change and is a fungible commodity - power is power. It also is about driving prices down for consumers for that commodity. The iOS and Google platforms have barely existed more than a decade, and the platforms are constantly evolving. New platforms and ecosystems are emerging too, with Facebook/Oculus, Valve/Steam, Amazon with Fire/Alexa, etc. Enshrining today’s dominant app platforms as the government sanctioned ones will surely stifle their evolution and innovation, because that’s what declaring something a utility is: a commodity with no differentiation. The crux of this matter is that end consumers generally do not care about the 30% cut, It’s a retail cut they’re used to from other platforms like Sony PlayStation, or Ticketmaster for concert tickets. it barely impacts them (and arguably the curated stores are a better overall experience). I also don’t think almost any consumer of iOS would agree their App ecosystem experience is fungible with Android or anyone else. This is entirely driven by Devs and publishers that want better margins.

starfallg 6y ago
>It’s a retail cut they’re used to from other platforms like Sony PlayStation, or Ticketmaster for concert tickets. The counterpoint being that Ticketmaster doesn't take a 30% cut on consession sales at the event AFAIK. That's the real issue - these stores are distributing some apps for free and some for pay. Hence free apps can sidestep paying the Google/Apple cut and then offer in-app payments directly. But that's entirely due to their business model of allowing free apps and taking a cut on paid apps.
- firstbabylonian 6y ago
  > Ticketmaster doesn't take a 30% cut on consession sales at the event Ticketmaster doesn't provide as complex of a service as Apple does with the App Store.
  - Beldin 6y ago
    To whom? Users want their non-malicious apps / non-fake tickets. Sellers want to sell their apps / tickets. The service doesn't seem that complex. Executing the service well may very well be complex, but the service itself isn't.
  - phatfish 6y ago
    If the App Store is more complex than Ticketmaster is by Apple's own doing. Certainly nothing that justifies taking 30% of all transactions that go near it.
    - parasubvert 6y ago
      Who gets to say it’s unjustified? As the judge said, there is zero evidence it is unjust.
- forty 6y ago
  Not sure what you mean, because Google/Apple also take a cut on in app payments.
  - starfallg 6y ago
    That's the crux of the matter in the Epic suit, and my point being that Ticketmaster doesn't take a 30% cut in food and drink sales at the venue.
    - parasubvert 6y ago
      There is no law preventing them from trying!
- tssva 6y ago
  Ticketmaster's parent company is Live Nation which owns some concert venues and also manages concert tours. In both those capacities they do sometimes collect a percentage of concessions sold.
  - starfallg 6y ago
    But that's only if they own/operate the venue. And there is commercial separation between the ticketing service and venue. So it's like you use Google Firebase as the backend for your app and they take a cut under that agreement, as opposed to the Play Store agreement.
    - parasubvert 6y ago
      Ticketmaster often negotiates exclusivity rights to venues. Meaning you can’t use a different ticket selling service for that venue. There was an attempt to argue they were a monopoly that should be regulated due to the % of the ticket they retained (Pearl Jam spearheaded this in the 90s). It didn’t work. Also I see nothing wrong as a business model with the Firebase analogy. If you could convince customers to go for it, then why not? Will the business model police arrest you? What I don’t get about these arguments is that they’re trying to get the government to punish a couple of companies that built a very successful business model purely because others want some of that dough. This isn’t about monopoly by any historical definition, it’s about sour grapes.
pydry 6y ago
>The crux of this matter is that end consumers generally do not care about the 30% cut, It’s a retail cut they’re used to from other platforms like Sony PlayStation, or Ticketmaster for concert tickets. I think by inadvertently comparing them to ticketmaster (whom consumers actively loathe) you've inadvertently demonstrated just how much consumers do care. Consumers just aren't necessarily able to understand the underlying market mechanism that gives rise to the shittiness they experience.
pyrale 6y ago
A better comparison may be banking, where a bank which acts as a market operator is not allowed to also participate in the market. Banks don't offer the same services and prices, and they cann innovate by creating new financial products, which seems to address your fear of losing the innovation in a regulated market. When a bank wants to participate in a market it operates, it is forced to create a subsidiary, which is not allowed to have a better deal, or insider information. These rules have been pivotal in the development of market operations, because they offered investors confidence that they had recourse against rigged markets. In effect, that would mean that Apple and others. would be able to compete with app creators, but 1) Market owner's apps would have to pay the 30%, and 2) market owner would have to provide equivalent ToS enforcement for all services.
oblio 6y ago
> The iOS and Google platforms have barely existed more than a decade, and the platforms are constantly evolving. New platforms and ecosystems are emerging too, with Facebook/Oculus, Valve/Steam, Amazon with Fire/Alexa, etc. Once you have critical mass, failure is next to impossible, slow and even preventable. Microsoft has been dominating desktop computing since 1981 through MS DOS and 1991 through Windows (almost 40 years!). Android and iOS will probably be around for 50 years, even if they become just another layer. We still have radio, TV, heck, even the post and vinyl. Computing has changed. It crossed the chasm.
- heavenlyblue 6y ago
  I am no certain how can you make this judgement given that Android existed only for about 10 years (OK, 12 - I just checked)
  - oblio 6y ago
    It's a prediction.
  - oblio 6y ago
    Oh, and as a side comment. Which free/cheap/reasonably priced dominant OS died while its platform was still alive? zOS is still the dominant OS for mainframes (60 years later!), MS-DOS was replaced by a product from the same company, Windows, that is still the dominant OS for desktops (30 years later). I don't see anything on the horizon that threatens zOS, nor Windows. Except their platforms disappearing, which is still at least 10-20 years from happening. iOS is the dominant OS for its platform and Apple won't abandon it until the platform dies (I guess once we have wearables that completely replace smartphones?), Android is the dominant OS for all other smartphones. Microsoft poured billions into creating a smartphone app ecosystem and failed. Blackberry, Palm, Nokia, Amazon tried and failed. How, pray tell, would Android die if smartphones are still popular? The Google moat is HUGE.
to11mtm 6y ago
> It took MANY decades before transmission lines, power generation and brokerage were forcibly separated and regulated. They traditionally were integrated, even through the 1980s in some countries. It's worth noting that Media has gone in the opposite direction - One of the many reasons I was vehemently opposed to Comcast's acquisition of NBC was because it's just too vertically integrated to be good for the consumer.

starfallg 6y ago

>It’s a retail cut they’re used to from other platforms like Sony PlayStation, or Ticketmaster for concert tickets. The counterpoint being that Ticketmaster doesn't take a 30% cut on consession sales at the event AFAIK. That's the real issue - these stores are distributing some apps for free and some for pay. Hence free apps can sidestep paying the Google/Apple cut and then offer in-app payments directly. But that's entirely due to their business model of allowing free apps and taking a cut on paid apps.

firstbabylonian 6y ago
> Ticketmaster doesn't take a 30% cut on consession sales at the event Ticketmaster doesn't provide as complex of a service as Apple does with the App Store.
- Beldin 6y ago
  To whom? Users want their non-malicious apps / non-fake tickets. Sellers want to sell their apps / tickets. The service doesn't seem that complex. Executing the service well may very well be complex, but the service itself isn't.
- phatfish 6y ago
  If the App Store is more complex than Ticketmaster is by Apple's own doing. Certainly nothing that justifies taking 30% of all transactions that go near it.
  - parasubvert 6y ago
    Who gets to say it’s unjustified? As the judge said, there is zero evidence it is unjust.
forty 6y ago
Not sure what you mean, because Google/Apple also take a cut on in app payments.
- starfallg 6y ago
  That's the crux of the matter in the Epic suit, and my point being that Ticketmaster doesn't take a 30% cut in food and drink sales at the venue.
  - parasubvert 6y ago
    There is no law preventing them from trying!
tssva 6y ago
Ticketmaster's parent company is Live Nation which owns some concert venues and also manages concert tours. In both those capacities they do sometimes collect a percentage of concessions sold.
- starfallg 6y ago
  But that's only if they own/operate the venue. And there is commercial separation between the ticketing service and venue. So it's like you use Google Firebase as the backend for your app and they take a cut under that agreement, as opposed to the Play Store agreement.
  - parasubvert 6y ago
    Ticketmaster often negotiates exclusivity rights to venues. Meaning you can’t use a different ticket selling service for that venue. There was an attempt to argue they were a monopoly that should be regulated due to the % of the ticket they retained (Pearl Jam spearheaded this in the 90s). It didn’t work. Also I see nothing wrong as a business model with the Firebase analogy. If you could convince customers to go for it, then why not? Will the business model police arrest you? What I don’t get about these arguments is that they’re trying to get the government to punish a couple of companies that built a very successful business model purely because others want some of that dough. This isn’t about monopoly by any historical definition, it’s about sour grapes.

pydry 6y ago

>The crux of this matter is that end consumers generally do not care about the 30% cut, It’s a retail cut they’re used to from other platforms like Sony PlayStation, or Ticketmaster for concert tickets. I think by inadvertently comparing them to ticketmaster (whom consumers actively loathe) you've inadvertently demonstrated just how much consumers do care. Consumers just aren't necessarily able to understand the underlying market mechanism that gives rise to the shittiness they experience.

pyrale 6y ago

A better comparison may be banking, where a bank which acts as a market operator is not allowed to also participate in the market. Banks don't offer the same services and prices, and they cann innovate by creating new financial products, which seems to address your fear of losing the innovation in a regulated market. When a bank wants to participate in a market it operates, it is forced to create a subsidiary, which is not allowed to have a better deal, or insider information. These rules have been pivotal in the development of market operations, because they offered investors confidence that they had recourse against rigged markets. In effect, that would mean that Apple and others. would be able to compete with app creators, but 1) Market owner's apps would have to pay the 30%, and 2) market owner would have to provide equivalent ToS enforcement for all services.

oblio 6y ago

> The iOS and Google platforms have barely existed more than a decade, and the platforms are constantly evolving. New platforms and ecosystems are emerging too, with Facebook/Oculus, Valve/Steam, Amazon with Fire/Alexa, etc. Once you have critical mass, failure is next to impossible, slow and even preventable. Microsoft has been dominating desktop computing since 1981 through MS DOS and 1991 through Windows (almost 40 years!). Android and iOS will probably be around for 50 years, even if they become just another layer. We still have radio, TV, heck, even the post and vinyl. Computing has changed. It crossed the chasm.

heavenlyblue 6y ago
I am no certain how can you make this judgement given that Android existed only for about 10 years (OK, 12 - I just checked)
- oblio 6y ago
  It's a prediction.
- oblio 6y ago
  Oh, and as a side comment. Which free/cheap/reasonably priced dominant OS died while its platform was still alive? zOS is still the dominant OS for mainframes (60 years later!), MS-DOS was replaced by a product from the same company, Windows, that is still the dominant OS for desktops (30 years later). I don't see anything on the horizon that threatens zOS, nor Windows. Except their platforms disappearing, which is still at least 10-20 years from happening. iOS is the dominant OS for its platform and Apple won't abandon it until the platform dies (I guess once we have wearables that completely replace smartphones?), Android is the dominant OS for all other smartphones. Microsoft poured billions into creating a smartphone app ecosystem and failed. Blackberry, Palm, Nokia, Amazon tried and failed. How, pray tell, would Android die if smartphones are still popular? The Google moat is HUGE.

to11mtm 6y ago

> It took MANY decades before transmission lines, power generation and brokerage were forcibly separated and regulated. They traditionally were integrated, even through the 1980s in some countries. It's worth noting that Media has gone in the opposite direction - One of the many reasons I was vehemently opposed to Comcast's acquisition of NBC was because it's just too vertically integrated to be good for the consumer.