5 ms·

#2 sounded intriguing, but it seems likely to not be the case [0]. I was curious because I have a Vizio that I deliberately keep disconnected from the internet

by sgrove 6y ago

#2 sounded intriguing, but it seems likely to not be the case [0]. I was curious because I have a Vizio that I deliberately keep disconnected from the internet, and rely on an Apple TV. Seems like that's not an attack vector in this case, though #1 is (and #3) seem worth looking into. What's ACR in point #4? [0] https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/325215/appletv-ethernet-over-hdmi https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/325215/appletv-eth...

jasonjayr 6y ago
ACR == Automatic Content Recognition. Basically it periodically screenshots what the panel is showing and sends it to their servers to see if it matches the programs they know about to figure out what it is you're watching.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  I don't see why people aren't rioting in the streets about this, apart from the fact that there are currently bigger issues already occupying rioters. It's seriously beyond the pale.
  - klyrs 6y ago
    They're glued to their TVs.
  - ajmurmann 6y ago
    Because most people don't know and/or understand. Look how many (often smart) people are bringing Alexa devices to their homes
    - jonnytran 6y ago
      I know smart people who have Alexa devices. Some of these people are software engineers who know there's someone on the other end listening to everything. One could argue that they must not be smart to buy these things. But I think that a more helpful way of thinking about it is that (1) people are great at rationalizing, especially when it makes their lives easier. And (2) the open source alternative isn't good enough or easy enough. For a long time, pirating music was the easiest way to listen to music that you wanted. Then things like iTunes and the iPod came along. Until there's an easy, open alternative, even smart people will continue paying money to put surveillance devices in their living rooms and bedrooms.
  - kllrnohj 6y ago
    Since I never connect my TV to the internet, why would ACR bother me? Doesn't really matter if the data isn't going anywhere.
    - beagle3 6y ago
      The TV might still find a way to connect through open WiFi, Comcast xfinity or (a future model) 5G whispernet style connection. It might not do that today, but perhaps a future firmware update that you would need or want, will do that; Visio TVs started ACRing and uploading that data after an update (they were sued for it and lost; it was called “smart data” or some other innocuous name.
  - shajznnckfke 6y ago
    To play the part of the average consumer here... why should I care exactly? I know about the concept of TV ratings so some families are allowing a computer to keep track of what they watch. How does this hurt me? Maybe if I was using my TV as an output for my home surveillance system I would care. Otherwise it’s just displaying content featuring paid actors or other people who are already being watched by millions on TV. Samsung or whoever they sold the data to is just one more viewer for that content. I get that they can build a profile of me based on what kind of content I’m watching, but it doesn’t seem different from what Netflix or YouTube is doing anyway. Probably they’re going to use the data to show attribution for engagements on ads for media. Good for them I guess. It‘s not in my top 1000 reasons to riot personally.
    - CamperBob2 6y ago
      Nielsen families get paid, for one thing.
    - Lio 6y ago
      Part of the distaste is the lack of control. That a faceless, remote corporation can reach into your home and arbitrarily control a product you've purchased feels very invasive. Companies like Samsung and LG have previously had cameras and microphones silently streaming unencrypted feeds. They've also been caught running network probes to search out, catalogue and report private media. All that feels very creepy to some people such as myself. You want to say no, don't do that ...but you can't.
      - nitrogen 6y ago
        Exactly. It's my house. It's my behavior. These four walls are sacrosanct. Imagine you are working from home or your kids are schooling from home, and you use the TV for meetings. Are they recording your presentation? Are pictures of your kids' classmates being fingerprinted and archived somewhere for correlation with all the other classmates? There are levels of outrageousness here: - Spying on TV through a purpose-built device: mildly annoying that every show and ad now has a tracking watermark that can be used surreptitiously, but voluntary Nielsen participation is just fine. - Spying on an app you own: YouTube collecting aggregated watch times for videos is useful to creators to avoid reaching people who don't want to watch them. Netflix collecting in-house analytics is only mildly annoying because I don't know how individualized the data is, but aggregate stats are fine. Behavioral analysis of individuals is still creepy. -Spying on all apps running on your software: Roku or a smart TV reporting what you watch in all apps is starting to approach unacceptable. Presumably appmakers know about this when they are making the apps, but a third party doesn't have the same checks and balances to make sure they aren't alienating users with creepy behavior. There is not a functioning market here because appmakers don't get a choice of how to reach users, because platform rentiers are claiming all of the users. - Spying on arbitrary video files you watch through DLNA: not okay. My work-in-progress video productions and self-ripped discs are simply none of the TV makers' business. -Spying on HDMI inputs: serious WTF. Like I can't even... WTF??? Who do they think they are?

by sgrove 6y ago

jasonjayr 6y ago

ACR == Automatic Content Recognition. Basically it periodically screenshots what the panel is showing and sends it to their servers to see if it matches the programs they know about to figure out what it is you're watching.

nitrogen 6y ago
I don't see why people aren't rioting in the streets about this, apart from the fact that there are currently bigger issues already occupying rioters. It's seriously beyond the pale.
- klyrs 6y ago
  They're glued to their TVs.
- ajmurmann 6y ago
  Because most people don't know and/or understand. Look how many (often smart) people are bringing Alexa devices to their homes
  - jonnytran 6y ago
    I know smart people who have Alexa devices. Some of these people are software engineers who know there's someone on the other end listening to everything. One could argue that they must not be smart to buy these things. But I think that a more helpful way of thinking about it is that (1) people are great at rationalizing, especially when it makes their lives easier. And (2) the open source alternative isn't good enough or easy enough. For a long time, pirating music was the easiest way to listen to music that you wanted. Then things like iTunes and the iPod came along. Until there's an easy, open alternative, even smart people will continue paying money to put surveillance devices in their living rooms and bedrooms.
- kllrnohj 6y ago
  Since I never connect my TV to the internet, why would ACR bother me? Doesn't really matter if the data isn't going anywhere.
  - beagle3 6y ago
    The TV might still find a way to connect through open WiFi, Comcast xfinity or (a future model) 5G whispernet style connection. It might not do that today, but perhaps a future firmware update that you would need or want, will do that; Visio TVs started ACRing and uploading that data after an update (they were sued for it and lost; it was called “smart data” or some other innocuous name.
- shajznnckfke 6y ago
  To play the part of the average consumer here... why should I care exactly? I know about the concept of TV ratings so some families are allowing a computer to keep track of what they watch. How does this hurt me? Maybe if I was using my TV as an output for my home surveillance system I would care. Otherwise it’s just displaying content featuring paid actors or other people who are already being watched by millions on TV. Samsung or whoever they sold the data to is just one more viewer for that content. I get that they can build a profile of me based on what kind of content I’m watching, but it doesn’t seem different from what Netflix or YouTube is doing anyway. Probably they’re going to use the data to show attribution for engagements on ads for media. Good for them I guess. It‘s not in my top 1000 reasons to riot personally.
  - CamperBob2 6y ago
    Nielsen families get paid, for one thing.
  - Lio 6y ago
    Part of the distaste is the lack of control. That a faceless, remote corporation can reach into your home and arbitrarily control a product you've purchased feels very invasive. Companies like Samsung and LG have previously had cameras and microphones silently streaming unencrypted feeds. They've also been caught running network probes to search out, catalogue and report private media. All that feels very creepy to some people such as myself. You want to say no, don't do that ...but you can't.
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      Exactly. It's my house. It's my behavior. These four walls are sacrosanct. Imagine you are working from home or your kids are schooling from home, and you use the TV for meetings. Are they recording your presentation? Are pictures of your kids' classmates being fingerprinted and archived somewhere for correlation with all the other classmates? There are levels of outrageousness here: - Spying on TV through a purpose-built device: mildly annoying that every show and ad now has a tracking watermark that can be used surreptitiously, but voluntary Nielsen participation is just fine. - Spying on an app you own: YouTube collecting aggregated watch times for videos is useful to creators to avoid reaching people who don't want to watch them. Netflix collecting in-house analytics is only mildly annoying because I don't know how individualized the data is, but aggregate stats are fine. Behavioral analysis of individuals is still creepy. -Spying on all apps running on your software: Roku or a smart TV reporting what you watch in all apps is starting to approach unacceptable. Presumably appmakers know about this when they are making the apps, but a third party doesn't have the same checks and balances to make sure they aren't alienating users with creepy behavior. There is not a functioning market here because appmakers don't get a choice of how to reach users, because platform rentiers are claiming all of the users. - Spying on arbitrary video files you watch through DLNA: not okay. My work-in-progress video productions and self-ripped discs are simply none of the TV makers' business. -Spying on HDMI inputs: serious WTF. Like I can't even... WTF??? Who do they think they are?