5 ms·

It also serves as a flag that allows people to identify you as having bought into the general set of practices which strive to change our culture to support tra

It also serves as a flag that allows people to identify you as having bought into the general set of practices which strive to change our culture to support trans and nonbinary gender ideology.

Frondo 6y ago
And if our culture doesn't already support trans and non-binary people (ideology? no, it's people we're talking about), then that seems like it'd be a good thing to change.
- fennecfoxen 6y ago
  Support of people may be involved, and this is a poor forum to litigate deep problems -- but if I trusted the diversity-and-inclusion apparatus of Silicon Valley in general to support the entirety of Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, including the inconvenient parts about people of differing religions, then I might not been predisposed to choose that word. Even your reply highlights it. "It's about people." Notice the manner in which you _correct_ my rather anodyne words. The fault is that I did not frame the question as you would have me frame it, and looked at a part of the general phenomenon that is different from you think deserves to be centered on. You are welcome to your ideology, in any event, and it would be a poor world indeed where one could not act to change the world in accordance with one's conscience.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Frondo 6y ago
    Would you please stop editing your post? You've made several substantial changes -- far beyond the scope of a clarification -- and now I'm reluctant to respond at all because who knows what it'll say next.
    - Spare_account 6y ago
      Not the same person but for what it's worth: the edit period is limited to a few minutes and it exists for a reason. This topic (gender identity/pronoun use) is important to approach carefully and is exactly when the edit window should be used.
      - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
        The edit window's about an hour
        fennecfoxen 6y ago
        I was within ~5 minutes, mmmaybe 10 tops. It is unfortunate that there is an excess of ideology around these issues. It hinders communication by confusing questions about the implementation of an ideology with hate-filled attacks on people. It does not help the matter that similar attacks are real and exist. On the other hand, such confusion of concerns is a common goal of many who advance their ideologies, so there is a possibility some may deem this confusion desirable.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Raphmedia 6y ago
    There is no such thing as "transgender ideology". You won't find those words on any credible sources. There are transgender people who want to access their human rights. Transgender people do not choose their gender identity.
    - fennecfoxen 6y ago
      There is very much ideology around these issues. One particularly relevant article of ideology suggests that people who are not trans, and whose names would not ordinarily cause confusion, ought nevertheless adopt a practice of specifying pronouns, in service of the idea that those who are trans (or nonbinary) might not stand out when they do so. While I am agree that there are human rights issues involved in the issues generally, I would say that is not specifically a human right to have others around you adopt this specific practice to support such a person as he, she, or they assert an identity.
centimeter 6y ago
I.e. it's a sort of political armband indicating you've fully submitted to globo-corpo neoliberal ideology.
- chungus_khan 6y ago
  Not sure exactly what you think pronouns have to do with neoliberalism? I don't really associate the likes of Thatcher, Reagan, Friedman, or Hayek with anything of the sort. I also think globo-corpo neoliberal is a bit redundant, no?
  - centimeter 6y ago
    "Liberal" and "neoliberal" have both been hijacked by progressives thoroughly enough that no one associates colloquial usage of either of those with Friedman or Hayek. Friedman and Hayek were certainly not globo-corpo, considering that they believed in things like freedom of association, covenants, and other legal protections that work against the likes of Amazon or Wal-mart (who are primarily interested in undermining unions, using strategies to diminish worker cohesion like diversity quotas, and strategies to defang leftism like trans activism).
- fennecfoxen 6y ago
  I'm not sure I would call it that at all. Silicon Valley is not the world and, in the corporate world, this remains a very California / Silicon Valley phenomenon (present but less strong in a few key other places — New York, Seattle, Portland come to mind). It is of course also a university-campus phenomenon (especially private universities) but those aren't really "corpo". For that matter, the Wikimedia Foundation is only "corpo" insofar as a 501(c)(3) is technically in fact a corporation — unlikely to be within the meaning of what you intended. On that note, it is more prominent in the nonprofit sector, perhaps due to volunteers being more predisposed to activism in general. (Mozilla was a bellwether.)

It also serves as a flag that allows people to identify you as having bought into the general set of practices which strive to change our culture to support trans and nonbinary gender ideology.

Frondo 6y ago

And if our culture doesn't already support trans and non-binary people (ideology? no, it's people we're talking about), then that seems like it'd be a good thing to change.

fennecfoxen 6y ago
Support of people may be involved, and this is a poor forum to litigate deep problems -- but if I trusted the diversity-and-inclusion apparatus of Silicon Valley in general to support the entirety of Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, including the inconvenient parts about people of differing religions, then I might not been predisposed to choose that word. Even your reply highlights it. "It's about people." Notice the manner in which you _correct_ my rather anodyne words. The fault is that I did not frame the question as you would have me frame it, and looked at a part of the general phenomenon that is different from you think deserves to be centered on. You are welcome to your ideology, in any event, and it would be a poor world indeed where one could not act to change the world in accordance with one's conscience.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Frondo 6y ago
  Would you please stop editing your post? You've made several substantial changes -- far beyond the scope of a clarification -- and now I'm reluctant to respond at all because who knows what it'll say next.
  - Spare_account 6y ago
    Not the same person but for what it's worth: the edit period is limited to a few minutes and it exists for a reason. This topic (gender identity/pronoun use) is important to approach carefully and is exactly when the edit window should be used.
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      The edit window's about an hour
      - fennecfoxen 6y ago
        I was within ~5 minutes, mmmaybe 10 tops. It is unfortunate that there is an excess of ideology around these issues. It hinders communication by confusing questions about the implementation of an ideology with hate-filled attacks on people. It does not help the matter that similar attacks are real and exist. On the other hand, such confusion of concerns is a common goal of many who advance their ideologies, so there is a possibility some may deem this confusion desirable.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Raphmedia 6y ago
  There is no such thing as "transgender ideology". You won't find those words on any credible sources. There are transgender people who want to access their human rights. Transgender people do not choose their gender identity.
  - fennecfoxen 6y ago
    There is very much ideology around these issues. One particularly relevant article of ideology suggests that people who are not trans, and whose names would not ordinarily cause confusion, ought nevertheless adopt a practice of specifying pronouns, in service of the idea that those who are trans (or nonbinary) might not stand out when they do so. While I am agree that there are human rights issues involved in the issues generally, I would say that is not specifically a human right to have others around you adopt this specific practice to support such a person as he, she, or they assert an identity.

centimeter 6y ago

I.e. it's a sort of political armband indicating you've fully submitted to globo-corpo neoliberal ideology.

chungus_khan 6y ago
Not sure exactly what you think pronouns have to do with neoliberalism? I don't really associate the likes of Thatcher, Reagan, Friedman, or Hayek with anything of the sort. I also think globo-corpo neoliberal is a bit redundant, no?
- centimeter 6y ago
  "Liberal" and "neoliberal" have both been hijacked by progressives thoroughly enough that no one associates colloquial usage of either of those with Friedman or Hayek. Friedman and Hayek were certainly not globo-corpo, considering that they believed in things like freedom of association, covenants, and other legal protections that work against the likes of Amazon or Wal-mart (who are primarily interested in undermining unions, using strategies to diminish worker cohesion like diversity quotas, and strategies to defang leftism like trans activism).
fennecfoxen 6y ago
I'm not sure I would call it that at all. Silicon Valley is not the world and, in the corporate world, this remains a very California / Silicon Valley phenomenon (present but less strong in a few key other places — New York, Seattle, Portland come to mind). It is of course also a university-campus phenomenon (especially private universities) but those aren't really "corpo". For that matter, the Wikimedia Foundation is only "corpo" insofar as a 501(c)(3) is technically in fact a corporation — unlikely to be within the meaning of what you intended. On that note, it is more prominent in the nonprofit sector, perhaps due to volunteers being more predisposed to activism in general. (Mozilla was a bellwether.)