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One of the difficult things about racism is that it does not matter how we (ie, people of European descent) feel about it, but how the people we're talking abou

One of the difficult things about racism is that it does not matter how we (ie, people of European descent) feel about it, but how the people we're talking about feel about it. For what it's worth you are doing the EXACT same thing the post in this article is about: you are pushing a very American view on racism. First of all, racism is absolutely not White -> Black. Or White -> Aboriginal. If you think that I'd assume you haven't met a lot of people form other parts of the world. Racism is everywhere and it's not a White-only issue. That's a very American view. Second of all, it absolutely DOES matter what 'we' (white people) think of it. Saying only people we talk about get to have a say in this is also a very American viewpoint. We really don't need to "defer to an aboriginal person", as you say. Just like this article states you are now assuming that all aboriginal people agree on this subject. Saying we aren't qualified to say what's racist but we need a minority for that is the kind of generalizations the article pushes against.

doctor_eval 6y ago
I’m not pushing a view on racism, I’m saying that the OP’s statements are clearly racist. I just applied the dictionary definition of the term. I never said that racism was white/black, but I was writing specifically in the context of European racism against Aboriginals in Australia, which happens to be fairly black and white. I’m happy to discuss racism in other countries, but that wasn’t the topic at hand. Of course it matters what white people think about racism. But it doesn’t hurt to get the opinion of those who are actually harmed by it, does it? I mean I have never had the misfortune of experiencing racism first hand, so if I say something that an aboriginal person considers racist, that’s something I would want to take very seriously. I never said “we” aren’t qualified to say what is racist. What I’m not so confident about, when specifically talking about aboriginal people, is claiming that my statements are not racist. Overt racism is pretty easy to spot, but just because I try to be considerate doesn’t mean that the things I say in good faith can’t nevertheless be racist. Keeping an open mind and listening to how others feel is more important than my biased opinion.
- waheoo 6y ago
  As someone who does experience racism on the regular I don't have quite the same level of trouble discerning racism from biggotry. One is extremely diminishing and the other is a pretty easy to write off as ignorance, differing upbringing, and a general intolerance of difference. If you need me to spell out a clear cut example of racism it's a few comments earlier where you assumed I was white and discounted my views on this matter solely because of it. Either that or what I was saying didn't fit your American centric narrative. For what it's worth, "statistically, aboriginal people commit more crime. Studies have shown that this is because of chronic health and economic issues which have never been adequately addressed by any Australian government" Was pretty much the gist of what I was getting at but I thought that was pretty obvious given the context and adding the context doesn't really make my statement any more or less factual. More credible maybe, but if you took my remarks on good faith it wouldn't have been a problem. But that is the problem with this American narrative, everyone is too busy trying to win, nobody is trying to look at facts for what they are and find the common ground therein. These facts don't make aboriginal people any less human or any less successful as a people. They're just shitty truths about the world.
  - doctor_eval 6y ago
    I'm sorry that you experience racism regularly. It's unacceptable. If I've said something that you consider racist then I sincerely apologise. You are right that I thought you were white. It is because you said, "don't start calling all white people racist for being nothing but white". I apologise for the assumption. You did, however, call me a moron, which doesn't really strike me as arguing in good faith. You also said this: > The aboriginal people of Australia face real problems. The police isn't one of them. If you live in Australia and you don't think that cops are, at least until relatively recently, a huge part of the problem with Aboriginal welfare, then maybe you missed the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody [0]. I was in high school when that stuff went down, I remember how many people were being killed, and the fact stands that Aboriginal people are 10x more likely to die in prison than Europeans. "The key finding of the royal commission was that Aboriginal people are more likely to die in custody because they are arrested and jailed at disproportionate rates. That remains as true in 2020 as it was in 1991." [1] > For what it's worth, "statistically, aboriginal people commit more crime. Studies have shown that this is because of chronic health and economic issues which have never been adequately addressed by any Australian government" Was pretty much the gist of what I was getting But that's not what you actually said. > I thought that was pretty obvious given the context and adding the context doesn't really make my statement any more or less factual. Mate, there was very little context in what you wrote. If I took you the wrong way then I apologise, but maybe you can accept your part in this too. Maybe you didn't express yourself as well as you might have. That's cool, but how you express yourself is not my responsibility. > if you took my remarks on good faith it wouldn't have been a problem. But that is the problem You called me a moron!! > with this American narrative ...and you assumed I'm American? Or that I don't have my own reasoned narrative? That's not really good faith now is it? > everyone is too busy trying to win, nobody is trying to look at facts for what they are and find the common ground therein. When you say that "Aboriginal people just commit more crime", that's not a fact, it's a tautology; of course they commit more crime, they are generally poorer and sicker, because of how they've been treated. I'm pretty sure that poor white people commit more crime too. Aboriginality has nothing to do with criminality; and just because a statement is true, through some twisted logic, doesn't mean it can't also be racist. That doesn't mean that I think you are a racist; I have no idea. But I do think what you said is. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_into_Aboriginal_Deaths_in_Custody https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_into_Aborigin... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/11/deaths-inside-how-we-track-indigenous-deaths-in-custody-and-why-we-do-it https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/11/death... edit: add quote

doctor_eval 6y ago

I’m not pushing a view on racism, I’m saying that the OP’s statements are clearly racist. I just applied the dictionary definition of the term. I never said that racism was white/black, but I was writing specifically in the context of European racism against Aboriginals in Australia, which happens to be fairly black and white. I’m happy to discuss racism in other countries, but that wasn’t the topic at hand. Of course it matters what white people think about racism. But it doesn’t hurt to get the opinion of those who are actually harmed by it, does it? I mean I have never had the misfortune of experiencing racism first hand, so if I say something that an aboriginal person considers racist, that’s something I would want to take very seriously. I never said “we” aren’t qualified to say what is racist. What I’m not so confident about, when specifically talking about aboriginal people, is claiming that my statements are not racist. Overt racism is pretty easy to spot, but just because I try to be considerate doesn’t mean that the things I say in good faith can’t nevertheless be racist. Keeping an open mind and listening to how others feel is more important than my biased opinion.

waheoo 6y ago
As someone who does experience racism on the regular I don't have quite the same level of trouble discerning racism from biggotry. One is extremely diminishing and the other is a pretty easy to write off as ignorance, differing upbringing, and a general intolerance of difference. If you need me to spell out a clear cut example of racism it's a few comments earlier where you assumed I was white and discounted my views on this matter solely because of it. Either that or what I was saying didn't fit your American centric narrative. For what it's worth, "statistically, aboriginal people commit more crime. Studies have shown that this is because of chronic health and economic issues which have never been adequately addressed by any Australian government" Was pretty much the gist of what I was getting at but I thought that was pretty obvious given the context and adding the context doesn't really make my statement any more or less factual. More credible maybe, but if you took my remarks on good faith it wouldn't have been a problem. But that is the problem with this American narrative, everyone is too busy trying to win, nobody is trying to look at facts for what they are and find the common ground therein. These facts don't make aboriginal people any less human or any less successful as a people. They're just shitty truths about the world.
- doctor_eval 6y ago
  I'm sorry that you experience racism regularly. It's unacceptable. If I've said something that you consider racist then I sincerely apologise. You are right that I thought you were white. It is because you said, "don't start calling all white people racist for being nothing but white". I apologise for the assumption. You did, however, call me a moron, which doesn't really strike me as arguing in good faith. You also said this: > The aboriginal people of Australia face real problems. The police isn't one of them. If you live in Australia and you don't think that cops are, at least until relatively recently, a huge part of the problem with Aboriginal welfare, then maybe you missed the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody [0]. I was in high school when that stuff went down, I remember how many people were being killed, and the fact stands that Aboriginal people are 10x more likely to die in prison than Europeans. "The key finding of the royal commission was that Aboriginal people are more likely to die in custody because they are arrested and jailed at disproportionate rates. That remains as true in 2020 as it was in 1991." [1] > For what it's worth, "statistically, aboriginal people commit more crime. Studies have shown that this is because of chronic health and economic issues which have never been adequately addressed by any Australian government" Was pretty much the gist of what I was getting But that's not what you actually said. > I thought that was pretty obvious given the context and adding the context doesn't really make my statement any more or less factual. Mate, there was very little context in what you wrote. If I took you the wrong way then I apologise, but maybe you can accept your part in this too. Maybe you didn't express yourself as well as you might have. That's cool, but how you express yourself is not my responsibility. > if you took my remarks on good faith it wouldn't have been a problem. But that is the problem You called me a moron!! > with this American narrative ...and you assumed I'm American? Or that I don't have my own reasoned narrative? That's not really good faith now is it? > everyone is too busy trying to win, nobody is trying to look at facts for what they are and find the common ground therein. When you say that "Aboriginal people just commit more crime", that's not a fact, it's a tautology; of course they commit more crime, they are generally poorer and sicker, because of how they've been treated. I'm pretty sure that poor white people commit more crime too. Aboriginality has nothing to do with criminality; and just because a statement is true, through some twisted logic, doesn't mean it can't also be racist. That doesn't mean that I think you are a racist; I have no idea. But I do think what you said is. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_into_Aboriginal_Deaths_in_Custody https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_into_Aborigin... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/11/deaths-inside-how-we-track-indigenous-deaths-in-custody-and-why-we-do-it https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/11/death... edit: add quote