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> While racism is a problem in Poland, it's not a systematic racism I absolutely agree that transplanting US talking points wholesale into non-US frames of ref

> While racism is a problem in Poland, it's not a systematic racism I absolutely agree that transplanting US talking points wholesale into non-US frames of reference is something that's often done blindly and never really applies. But the reason for this is that the issue is nuanced and has a lot of local context that needs consideration in its own right. It shouldn't be used as an excuse to dismiss the existence of systemic racism in your own country. I think the above quoted line is such a pity as it truly undermines the rest of your otherwise excellent comment.

gambiting 6y ago
Well, you have conveniently omitted the next couple words from that sentence - "it's not systematic racism [like in the US]", which is what my argument was built upon, and the reason for the entire comment. Media treat is as if American problems not only exist in Poland, but also as if they have the same root causes as in the US. Poland does of course have systematic racism problems - for instance against the Roma people, of whom there is a non-insignificant number and who are discriminated against literally everywhere. Same with immigrants, regardless of their skin colour - Ukrainians who come to work in Poland are treated very poorly and portrayed negatively just for who they are. That is systematic racism. BUT - it's not systematic racism like in the US where (as far as I can understand) the racism is rooted in history of slave ownership, general belief that black people are inferior and deep history of segregation normalizing the process. None of those apply in Poland, yet some people behave as if they do - and that is what I object to.
StavrosK 6y ago
The definition of systemic racism, as a theory, is that a country (specifically the US) was founded as a racist country (black people were the property of white people). This is not so in Poland, therefore it can't be considered systemic racism.
- lucideer 6y ago
  Do you have citations for this? My own experience of the term's usage is to simply imply that racism is part of a system's inherent structural definition, rather than being purely reliant on individual/group biases. In particular in Europe, one very simplistic example of this is the systemic intolerance of nomadic peoples. This is not limited to individuals discriminating against nomadic people, but rather that legislation and bureaucratic processes are in place that give inherent preference to those who are not nomadic; most obviously in laws related to property rentals and ownership, but also pervading every form of corporate and public administration.
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    Sure: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0415952786 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0415952786 https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565 https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565 > My own experience of the term's usage is to simply imply that racism is part of a system's inherent structural definition, rather than being purely reliant on individual/group biases. By that definition, all racism is systemic racism, since the system is made up of people.
    - lucideer 6y ago
      I haven't read any of Feagin's research, but from reading that article's commentary on Feagin's research, it outlines a highly US-centric approach to defining systemic racism, which would imply that systemic racism, by definition, cannot exist outside of the US. I don't know enough in the field to know if Feagin's definition is a popular one worldwide, or even within the US, but it seems somewhat reductive on first reading. If systemic racism cannot occur outside of the US, what then should we refer to racism that is "systemic" as? > By that definition, all racism is systemic racism, since the system is made up of people. Technically, I would agree, but going that far seems somewhat pedantic.
      - StavrosK 6y ago
        Well, Feagin defined systemic racism, as a concept it's US-specific. > If systemic racism cannot occur outside of the US, what then should we refer to racism that is "systemic" as? I don't know, I sincerely don't understand your definition. How can a country be comprised of racist people but have a system that isn't, or vice versa?
WhyNott 6y ago
There is a specific reason to say it: 98% of polish population belong to a single ethic group, and even of the remaining 2% the vast majority are what most people would consider to be "white". Non-white people tend to be very rare even in metropolitan areas (maybe to a lesser extent in Warsaw), and they are usually either students or high-income people moving to Poland for professional or relationship reasons. In general, Poland isn't a very tempting target for immigration. This said, you can argue there is some systematic racism against the Roma or Ukrainians. But it's more based on culture and national identity, so its different than what an American would think of then hearing the term.
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
  Also "white" is typically not a category you speak of. Ethnicity is much more important and it's often lost on americans in my experience who tend to promptly dismiss differences between e.g. Ukrainians and Poles.
- lucideer 6y ago
  Your final paragraph is what I would think of. Your opening paragraph seems to commit the same mistake the original commenter was lamenting: you're defining racism purely through a US lens and asking if the same is present in Poland. The framing of that question isn't valid.

gambiting 6y ago

Well, you have conveniently omitted the next couple words from that sentence - "it's not systematic racism [like in the US]", which is what my argument was built upon, and the reason for the entire comment. Media treat is as if American problems not only exist in Poland, but also as if they have the same root causes as in the US. Poland does of course have systematic racism problems - for instance against the Roma people, of whom there is a non-insignificant number and who are discriminated against literally everywhere. Same with immigrants, regardless of their skin colour - Ukrainians who come to work in Poland are treated very poorly and portrayed negatively just for who they are. That is systematic racism. BUT - it's not systematic racism like in the US where (as far as I can understand) the racism is rooted in history of slave ownership, general belief that black people are inferior and deep history of segregation normalizing the process. None of those apply in Poland, yet some people behave as if they do - and that is what I object to.

StavrosK 6y ago

The definition of systemic racism, as a theory, is that a country (specifically the US) was founded as a racist country (black people were the property of white people). This is not so in Poland, therefore it can't be considered systemic racism.

lucideer 6y ago
Do you have citations for this? My own experience of the term's usage is to simply imply that racism is part of a system's inherent structural definition, rather than being purely reliant on individual/group biases. In particular in Europe, one very simplistic example of this is the systemic intolerance of nomadic peoples. This is not limited to individuals discriminating against nomadic people, but rather that legislation and bureaucratic processes are in place that give inherent preference to those who are not nomadic; most obviously in laws related to property rentals and ownership, but also pervading every form of corporate and public administration.
- StavrosK 6y ago
  Sure: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0415952786 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0415952786 https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565 https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565 > My own experience of the term's usage is to simply imply that racism is part of a system's inherent structural definition, rather than being purely reliant on individual/group biases. By that definition, all racism is systemic racism, since the system is made up of people.
  - lucideer 6y ago
    I haven't read any of Feagin's research, but from reading that article's commentary on Feagin's research, it outlines a highly US-centric approach to defining systemic racism, which would imply that systemic racism, by definition, cannot exist outside of the US. I don't know enough in the field to know if Feagin's definition is a popular one worldwide, or even within the US, but it seems somewhat reductive on first reading. If systemic racism cannot occur outside of the US, what then should we refer to racism that is "systemic" as? > By that definition, all racism is systemic racism, since the system is made up of people. Technically, I would agree, but going that far seems somewhat pedantic.
    - StavrosK 6y ago
      Well, Feagin defined systemic racism, as a concept it's US-specific. > If systemic racism cannot occur outside of the US, what then should we refer to racism that is "systemic" as? I don't know, I sincerely don't understand your definition. How can a country be comprised of racist people but have a system that isn't, or vice versa?

WhyNott 6y ago

There is a specific reason to say it: 98% of polish population belong to a single ethic group, and even of the remaining 2% the vast majority are what most people would consider to be "white". Non-white people tend to be very rare even in metropolitan areas (maybe to a lesser extent in Warsaw), and they are usually either students or high-income people moving to Poland for professional or relationship reasons. In general, Poland isn't a very tempting target for immigration. This said, you can argue there is some systematic racism against the Roma or Ukrainians. But it's more based on culture and national identity, so its different than what an American would think of then hearing the term.

isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
Also "white" is typically not a category you speak of. Ethnicity is much more important and it's often lost on americans in my experience who tend to promptly dismiss differences between e.g. Ukrainians and Poles.
lucideer 6y ago
Your final paragraph is what I would think of. Your opening paragraph seems to commit the same mistake the original commenter was lamenting: you're defining racism purely through a US lens and asking if the same is present in Poland. The framing of that question isn't valid.