6 ms·

No, that isn't racist at all. Unfortunate, an injustice, a tragedy, a disaster, a systemic failure to integrate, yes. But racist? You're going to have to spell

by waheoo 6y ago

No, that isn't racist at all. Unfortunate, an injustice, a tragedy, a disaster, a systemic failure to integrate, yes. But racist? You're going to have to spell that one out for me. Aboriginal people just commit more crime. That isn't racist. Thats a symptom of a problem that predates most of us sitting here in our armchairs. Talk about the real problem not the symptom, but whatever you do, don't start calling all white people racist for being nothing but white, all that does is alienate allies and make you look like a moron.

doctor_eval 6y ago
Yeah, a tragic injustice that only happens to aboriginal people. If only we could do something. Edited to respond to your edits: > Aboriginal people just commit more crime. That isn't racist. Unqualified statements asserting that a specific racial group "just commit more crime" is pretty much an applied definition of the word "racist". Isolated statistics about aboriginal behaviour used to buttress your assertion that you are not racist, just seem to underline the fact that perhaps you have much to learn. If you'd said, "statistically, aboriginal people commit more crime. Studies have shown that this is because of chronic health and economic issues which have never been adequately addressed by any Australian government", that would probably not be racist, but I'd want to defer to an aboriginal person before putting my neck out too far on that one either. One of the difficult things about racism is that it does not matter how we (ie, people of European descent) feel about it, but how the people we're talking about feel about it. > Thats a symptom of a problem that predates most of us sitting here in our armchairs What problem are you talking about? The problem that we invaded their land, shot them, stole their children, and to this day oppress them both economically and legally? > all that does is alienate allies and make you look like a moron No ally of mine is going to be alienated or offended by simple statements of truth.
- apexalpha 6y ago
  One of the difficult things about racism is that it does not matter how we (ie, people of European descent) feel about it, but how the people we're talking about feel about it. For what it's worth you are doing the EXACT same thing the post in this article is about: you are pushing a very American view on racism. First of all, racism is absolutely not White -> Black. Or White -> Aboriginal. If you think that I'd assume you haven't met a lot of people form other parts of the world. Racism is everywhere and it's not a White-only issue. That's a very American view. Second of all, it absolutely DOES matter what 'we' (white people) think of it. Saying only people we talk about get to have a say in this is also a very American viewpoint. We really don't need to "defer to an aboriginal person", as you say. Just like this article states you are now assuming that all aboriginal people agree on this subject. Saying we aren't qualified to say what's racist but we need a minority for that is the kind of generalizations the article pushes against.
  - doctor_eval 6y ago
    I’m not pushing a view on racism, I’m saying that the OP’s statements are clearly racist. I just applied the dictionary definition of the term. I never said that racism was white/black, but I was writing specifically in the context of European racism against Aboriginals in Australia, which happens to be fairly black and white. I’m happy to discuss racism in other countries, but that wasn’t the topic at hand. Of course it matters what white people think about racism. But it doesn’t hurt to get the opinion of those who are actually harmed by it, does it? I mean I have never had the misfortune of experiencing racism first hand, so if I say something that an aboriginal person considers racist, that’s something I would want to take very seriously. I never said “we” aren’t qualified to say what is racist. What I’m not so confident about, when specifically talking about aboriginal people, is claiming that my statements are not racist. Overt racism is pretty easy to spot, but just because I try to be considerate doesn’t mean that the things I say in good faith can’t nevertheless be racist. Keeping an open mind and listening to how others feel is more important than my biased opinion.
    - waheoo 6y ago
      As someone who does experience racism on the regular I don't have quite the same level of trouble discerning racism from biggotry. One is extremely diminishing and the other is a pretty easy to write off as ignorance, differing upbringing, and a general intolerance of difference. If you need me to spell out a clear cut example of racism it's a few comments earlier where you assumed I was white and discounted my views on this matter solely because of it. Either that or what I was saying didn't fit your American centric narrative. For what it's worth, "statistically, aboriginal people commit more crime. Studies have shown that this is because of chronic health and economic issues which have never been adequately addressed by any Australian government" Was pretty much the gist of what I was getting at but I thought that was pretty obvious given the context and adding the context doesn't really make my statement any more or less factual. More credible maybe, but if you took my remarks on good faith it wouldn't have been a problem. But that is the problem with this American narrative, everyone is too busy trying to win, nobody is trying to look at facts for what they are and find the common ground therein. These facts don't make aboriginal people any less human or any less successful as a people. They're just shitty truths about the world.
deleted 6y ago
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justinclift 6y ago
> Aboriginal people just commit more crime. That isn't racist. Er... that sounds incredibly racist?
- dkdbejwi383 6y ago
  I think was the OP was saying is that indigenous people are more likely to commit crimes because of the circumstances that are put upon them by the system, and that they also lack access to better legal representation for the same reason, and are therefore more likely to be convicted of crimes. Really, it's due to economic circumstance (I bet poor white people are convicted of more crimes than rich white people). It just so happens that the system makes it very difficult for indigenous people to move up the economic ladder. The system is set up in such a way that it assumes indigenous people want to and/or should confirm to white European ideas of what is "normal" as well.
  - morelisp 6y ago
    > circumstances that are put upon them by the system, and that they also lack access to better legal representation for the same reason, and are therefore more likely to be convicted of crimes. If only we had a convenient word for this, "the confluence of negative formal and material circumstances put upon someone because of race"...
  - doctor_eval 6y ago
    I'd like to think that's what the OP was saying, but that's not remotely what the OP actually said. Also, they called me a moron, which (accurate or not) is not cool. > The system is set up in such a way that it assumes indigenous people want to and/or should confirm to white European ideas of what is "normal" as well I suspect that the system does not assume that aboriginal people want or should be European; rather, it doesn't think about aboriginal people at all.
  - nobody9999 6y ago
    >Really, it's due to economic circumstance (I bet poor white people are convicted of more crimes than rich white people). Absolutely. Not that it's anything new. Nor is it limited to ethnic minorities. Consider Anatole France's observation[0]: "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." [0] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Anatole_France https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Anatole_France
cbzbc 6y ago
> a systemic failure to integrate Given chronology, that's not entirely or even largely on them.
Thlom 6y ago
No one is calling all white people racist?
- waheoo 6y ago
  Lots of people are calling all white people racist. White fragility is a best seller being heavily pushed by people all over America.
dkdbejwi383 6y ago
> a systemic failure to integrate You're talking about white Europeans failure to integrate with Indigenous Australian societies, right?
- waheoo 6y ago
  Did I specify? Cultural integration requires both cultures to integrate. No, it isn't equal sided, no it isn't fair what has happened, but ignoring the current status quo and positing Europeans should be actively trying to go bush is just facetious.
fastball 6y ago
> Aboriginal people just commit more crime. Isn't that the same argument people use in the US to justify why more Black Americans are incarcerated / killed by cops? If that is actually your stance, I'm confused as to how you see Australia as fundamentally different from the US.
- threatofrain 6y ago
  It's also the argument about why AI isn't racist, the data is racist, and thus hotspot-based-policing is just a search for the optimal distribution of police resources.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- waheoo 6y ago
  Because we had a royal commission into this and that is what we found. https://youtu.be/fNSRz-MCM1w?t=253 https://youtu.be/fNSRz-MCM1w?t=253 Seriously this trying to draw false comparisons with America where there aren't any is exactly what the OPs article is about.
  - doctor_eval 6y ago
    This is a couple of vloggers lifting quotes from the royal commission and discussing it. It’s an opinion piece, nothing more. In this video they also say that changing the date of Australia Day is “ridiculous”. That’s not necessarily bad in and of itself, but it’s certainly not an opinion shared by all aboriginal people and it strongly suggests that they aren’t impartial. If this is the best you’ve got to defend your views, you don’t got much at all.
    - waheoo 6y ago
      That wasn't just a couple of vlooggers... Jordan shanks is one of the small handful of legitimate journalists we have in this country.
underwater 6y ago
Please don't pretend that Australia is free of racism. There are plenty of backwards and indefensible views that are socially acceptable and given plenty of air time in mainstream media: portrayal of Aboriginals as a drain on society, narratives about "African gangs" and the "cashed up Chinese buying properties". These are not niche opinions, they're mainstream.
DoreenMichele 6y ago
But racist? You're going to have to spell that one out for me. Laws are written by human beings. In the US, a lot of laws were written with explicitly racist goals of denying certain groups equal access. We are still living with that legacy in myriad ways. If you write laws designed to target certain groups and land them in jail, don't be all shocked when a lot of those folks wind up in jail. And then, yes, "x group just commits more crimes" is a racist statement because it glosses over the context that the "crimes" they commit are "crimes" invented by White power holders to intentionally deny such people rights.

by waheoo 6y ago

doctor_eval 6y ago

Yeah, a tragic injustice that only happens to aboriginal people. If only we could do something. Edited to respond to your edits: > Aboriginal people just commit more crime. That isn't racist. Unqualified statements asserting that a specific racial group "just commit more crime" is pretty much an applied definition of the word "racist". Isolated statistics about aboriginal behaviour used to buttress your assertion that you are not racist, just seem to underline the fact that perhaps you have much to learn. If you'd said, "statistically, aboriginal people commit more crime. Studies have shown that this is because of chronic health and economic issues which have never been adequately addressed by any Australian government", that would probably not be racist, but I'd want to defer to an aboriginal person before putting my neck out too far on that one either. One of the difficult things about racism is that it does not matter how we (ie, people of European descent) feel about it, but how the people we're talking about feel about it. > Thats a symptom of a problem that predates most of us sitting here in our armchairs What problem are you talking about? The problem that we invaded their land, shot them, stole their children, and to this day oppress them both economically and legally? > all that does is alienate allies and make you look like a moron No ally of mine is going to be alienated or offended by simple statements of truth.

apexalpha 6y ago
One of the difficult things about racism is that it does not matter how we (ie, people of European descent) feel about it, but how the people we're talking about feel about it. For what it's worth you are doing the EXACT same thing the post in this article is about: you are pushing a very American view on racism. First of all, racism is absolutely not White -> Black. Or White -> Aboriginal. If you think that I'd assume you haven't met a lot of people form other parts of the world. Racism is everywhere and it's not a White-only issue. That's a very American view. Second of all, it absolutely DOES matter what 'we' (white people) think of it. Saying only people we talk about get to have a say in this is also a very American viewpoint. We really don't need to "defer to an aboriginal person", as you say. Just like this article states you are now assuming that all aboriginal people agree on this subject. Saying we aren't qualified to say what's racist but we need a minority for that is the kind of generalizations the article pushes against.
- doctor_eval 6y ago
  I’m not pushing a view on racism, I’m saying that the OP’s statements are clearly racist. I just applied the dictionary definition of the term. I never said that racism was white/black, but I was writing specifically in the context of European racism against Aboriginals in Australia, which happens to be fairly black and white. I’m happy to discuss racism in other countries, but that wasn’t the topic at hand. Of course it matters what white people think about racism. But it doesn’t hurt to get the opinion of those who are actually harmed by it, does it? I mean I have never had the misfortune of experiencing racism first hand, so if I say something that an aboriginal person considers racist, that’s something I would want to take very seriously. I never said “we” aren’t qualified to say what is racist. What I’m not so confident about, when specifically talking about aboriginal people, is claiming that my statements are not racist. Overt racism is pretty easy to spot, but just because I try to be considerate doesn’t mean that the things I say in good faith can’t nevertheless be racist. Keeping an open mind and listening to how others feel is more important than my biased opinion.
  - waheoo 6y ago
    As someone who does experience racism on the regular I don't have quite the same level of trouble discerning racism from biggotry. One is extremely diminishing and the other is a pretty easy to write off as ignorance, differing upbringing, and a general intolerance of difference. If you need me to spell out a clear cut example of racism it's a few comments earlier where you assumed I was white and discounted my views on this matter solely because of it. Either that or what I was saying didn't fit your American centric narrative. For what it's worth, "statistically, aboriginal people commit more crime. Studies have shown that this is because of chronic health and economic issues which have never been adequately addressed by any Australian government" Was pretty much the gist of what I was getting at but I thought that was pretty obvious given the context and adding the context doesn't really make my statement any more or less factual. More credible maybe, but if you took my remarks on good faith it wouldn't have been a problem. But that is the problem with this American narrative, everyone is too busy trying to win, nobody is trying to look at facts for what they are and find the common ground therein. These facts don't make aboriginal people any less human or any less successful as a people. They're just shitty truths about the world.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

justinclift 6y ago

> Aboriginal people just commit more crime. That isn't racist. Er... that sounds incredibly racist?

dkdbejwi383 6y ago
I think was the OP was saying is that indigenous people are more likely to commit crimes because of the circumstances that are put upon them by the system, and that they also lack access to better legal representation for the same reason, and are therefore more likely to be convicted of crimes. Really, it's due to economic circumstance (I bet poor white people are convicted of more crimes than rich white people). It just so happens that the system makes it very difficult for indigenous people to move up the economic ladder. The system is set up in such a way that it assumes indigenous people want to and/or should confirm to white European ideas of what is "normal" as well.
- morelisp 6y ago
  > circumstances that are put upon them by the system, and that they also lack access to better legal representation for the same reason, and are therefore more likely to be convicted of crimes. If only we had a convenient word for this, "the confluence of negative formal and material circumstances put upon someone because of race"...
- doctor_eval 6y ago
  I'd like to think that's what the OP was saying, but that's not remotely what the OP actually said. Also, they called me a moron, which (accurate or not) is not cool. > The system is set up in such a way that it assumes indigenous people want to and/or should confirm to white European ideas of what is "normal" as well I suspect that the system does not assume that aboriginal people want or should be European; rather, it doesn't think about aboriginal people at all.
- nobody9999 6y ago
  >Really, it's due to economic circumstance (I bet poor white people are convicted of more crimes than rich white people). Absolutely. Not that it's anything new. Nor is it limited to ethnic minorities. Consider Anatole France's observation[0]: "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." [0] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Anatole_France https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Anatole_France

cbzbc 6y ago

> a systemic failure to integrate Given chronology, that's not entirely or even largely on them.

Thlom 6y ago

No one is calling all white people racist?

waheoo 6y ago
Lots of people are calling all white people racist. White fragility is a best seller being heavily pushed by people all over America.

dkdbejwi383 6y ago

> a systemic failure to integrate You're talking about white Europeans failure to integrate with Indigenous Australian societies, right?

waheoo 6y ago
Did I specify? Cultural integration requires both cultures to integrate. No, it isn't equal sided, no it isn't fair what has happened, but ignoring the current status quo and positing Europeans should be actively trying to go bush is just facetious.

fastball 6y ago

> Aboriginal people just commit more crime. Isn't that the same argument people use in the US to justify why more Black Americans are incarcerated / killed by cops? If that is actually your stance, I'm confused as to how you see Australia as fundamentally different from the US.

threatofrain 6y ago
It's also the argument about why AI isn't racist, the data is racist, and thus hotspot-based-policing is just a search for the optimal distribution of police resources.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
waheoo 6y ago
Because we had a royal commission into this and that is what we found. https://youtu.be/fNSRz-MCM1w?t=253 https://youtu.be/fNSRz-MCM1w?t=253 Seriously this trying to draw false comparisons with America where there aren't any is exactly what the OPs article is about.
- doctor_eval 6y ago
  This is a couple of vloggers lifting quotes from the royal commission and discussing it. It’s an opinion piece, nothing more. In this video they also say that changing the date of Australia Day is “ridiculous”. That’s not necessarily bad in and of itself, but it’s certainly not an opinion shared by all aboriginal people and it strongly suggests that they aren’t impartial. If this is the best you’ve got to defend your views, you don’t got much at all.
  - waheoo 6y ago
    That wasn't just a couple of vlooggers... Jordan shanks is one of the small handful of legitimate journalists we have in this country.

underwater 6y ago

Please don't pretend that Australia is free of racism. There are plenty of backwards and indefensible views that are socially acceptable and given plenty of air time in mainstream media: portrayal of Aboriginals as a drain on society, narratives about "African gangs" and the "cashed up Chinese buying properties". These are not niche opinions, they're mainstream.

DoreenMichele 6y ago

But racist? You're going to have to spell that one out for me. Laws are written by human beings. In the US, a lot of laws were written with explicitly racist goals of denying certain groups equal access. We are still living with that legacy in myriad ways. If you write laws designed to target certain groups and land them in jail, don't be all shocked when a lot of those folks wind up in jail. And then, yes, "x group just commits more crimes" is a racist statement because it glosses over the context that the "crimes" they commit are "crimes" invented by White power holders to intentionally deny such people rights.