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>I _know_ I can get staff in India or China much cheaper than here No you can't. If you could more companies would be doing it. You get what you pay for. Wh

by danssig 16y ago

>I _know_ I can get staff in India or China much cheaper than here No you can't. If you could more companies would be doing it. You get what you pay for. When you get cheap outsourced labor in India you're getting people with no experience and insanely high turn over rate. If you want people from India with more experience you'll find them out west somewhere making a better salary. The market rate is the market rate. If you suddenly switched all programmers to being remote then the guys in India would initially be getting offered so many jobs that they'd have to push their prices up in response. You're making the classic mistake of assuming cost = what it costs me + some profit %. It doesn't, it's about perceived value and nothing else.

bruce511 16y ago
It's interesting to see the knee-jerk reaction when someone talks about Indian or Chinese programmers. The hypothesis that "all smart Indian programmers are in the US" is, well, somewhat naive. Sure not _all_ Indian programmers are great, not all are even good, but that's true everywhere. Finding the good ones will take as much work there as it does here. There's an awful lot of chaff. But there are good ones, even great ones. And a _very_ tiny percentage of a billion is still a lot. So let me make the argument less prone to misunderstanding. When you open the door to making a post "work remotely" you are competing with programmers in Ireland, Australia, South Africa, Israel, Holland, Germany, New Zealand and so on. All have excellent English language skills (ok, apart from the pesky Germans), excellent work ethics, and in many cases require a living wage below that found in the US. When your job requires you go to the office, you're competing with say a million others who could do that job. You might even be the very best. But are you still the best if we expand the pool to include a billion people?
- jacques_chester 16y ago
  I am Australian and I don't see why American programmers would deserve any special treatment over Indians, Kiwis, Saffies etc. Anyway, Australians are more expensive than Americans at this point. The AUD has surged against the USD and property prices and the rents linked to them have spiralled out of control.
- danssig 16y ago
  >The hypothesis that "all smart Indian programmers are in the US" is, well, somewhat naive. It sure is, which is why no one is saying that. I said the west (that's not just the US, you know?). >you are competing with programmers in Ireland, Australia, South Africa, Israel, Holland, Germany, New Zealand and so on. I already am. Every one of them that is willing to move where I live. The only difference is that neither they, nor I would have to move if we moved to telecommuting. This would depress the value of labor somewhat because commute hassles are figured into the current price, but I don't believe we would be looking at a long term 50% decrease. >and in many cases require a living wage below that found in the US. Irrelevant. Market prices are set based on perceived value of the good or service. Not what it costs to produce or anything like that. > But are you still the best if we expand the pool to include a billion people? No of course not, but we're not all competing for one job. If all programming jobs became telecommuting jobs then I would be competing with everyone but for every job.

by danssig 16y ago

bruce511 16y ago

It's interesting to see the knee-jerk reaction when someone talks about Indian or Chinese programmers. The hypothesis that "all smart Indian programmers are in the US" is, well, somewhat naive. Sure not _all_ Indian programmers are great, not all are even good, but that's true everywhere. Finding the good ones will take as much work there as it does here. There's an awful lot of chaff. But there are good ones, even great ones. And a _very_ tiny percentage of a billion is still a lot. So let me make the argument less prone to misunderstanding. When you open the door to making a post "work remotely" you are competing with programmers in Ireland, Australia, South Africa, Israel, Holland, Germany, New Zealand and so on. All have excellent English language skills (ok, apart from the pesky Germans), excellent work ethics, and in many cases require a living wage below that found in the US. When your job requires you go to the office, you're competing with say a million others who could do that job. You might even be the very best. But are you still the best if we expand the pool to include a billion people?

jacques_chester 16y ago
I am Australian and I don't see why American programmers would deserve any special treatment over Indians, Kiwis, Saffies etc. Anyway, Australians are more expensive than Americans at this point. The AUD has surged against the USD and property prices and the rents linked to them have spiralled out of control.
danssig 16y ago
>The hypothesis that "all smart Indian programmers are in the US" is, well, somewhat naive. It sure is, which is why no one is saying that. I said the west (that's not just the US, you know?). >you are competing with programmers in Ireland, Australia, South Africa, Israel, Holland, Germany, New Zealand and so on. I already am. Every one of them that is willing to move where I live. The only difference is that neither they, nor I would have to move if we moved to telecommuting. This would depress the value of labor somewhat because commute hassles are figured into the current price, but I don't believe we would be looking at a long term 50% decrease. >and in many cases require a living wage below that found in the US. Irrelevant. Market prices are set based on perceived value of the good or service. Not what it costs to produce or anything like that. > But are you still the best if we expand the pool to include a billion people? No of course not, but we're not all competing for one job. If all programming jobs became telecommuting jobs then I would be competing with everyone but for every job.