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I definitely don’t think it was your intention to send a “this is a male’s job” message, but some readers might interpret it that way (even subconsciously) if w

I definitely don’t think it was your intention to send a “this is a male’s job” message, but some readers might interpret it that way (even subconsciously) if we use language like “software guys” instead of software developers. There are definitely women working in all of these areas, and hopefully many more in the future!

formercoder 6y ago
It’s funny how dropping “guys” is such low hanging D&I fruit but also so hard to do. I try to use “folks” and honestly have started saying y’all a lot.
- chestervonwinch 6y ago
  As someone raised in the north US, living the last ~8 years between Florida and Texas has helped break the “you guys” habit. However, I admit that I still feel like an imposter whenever I use “y’all”.
  - twalla 6y ago
    Y’all is a single syllable, rolls off the tongue and is gender neutral. By the power vested in me by the State of Texas, I hereby grant the reader (herein referred to as “all y’all”) permission to use “y’all” in perpetuity.
    - formercoder 6y ago
      Thanks, much appreciated.
  - _nothing 6y ago
    I grew up near Chicago, currently live in Canada, and I say "y'all" all the time. I feel kind of self-conscious about it too but I asked a friend here if it was weird for me to say and she says she also says it all the time, so.
Chris2048 6y ago
According to Oxford Dictionary: "guys [plural] (informal) a group of people of either sex e.g 'Come on, you guys, let's get going!'" -- https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/american_english/guy https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/americ... This is also my (local) experience of the word usage: that it's used for groups of any sex.
- klyrs 6y ago
  So if I ask a straight man "how many guys have you slept with," how do you expect him to answer?
  - Chris2048 6y ago
    English is an idiomatic language, there is no straight logical mapping between semantics of individual words and ultimate meaning. Add in purposeful ambiguity, innuendo and pragmatism, and the situation is more complex than either "guys always mean men", or "guys always means a group of any sex" - However, I'm not sure dictionaries aim to pin down every aspect of usage, rather than summarise the semantic. My own experience: "guys" referring to a specific group e.g. "those guys" can refer to mixed groups. "guys" with no clear target can be used abstractly as a more casual way to refer to men in general, but I rarely see men themselves use this (but usage may vary). Women, and women's magazines use it quite a bit. "How many guys have you slept with" is tainted as an indicator of general semantics b/c it is a partly idiomatic; as an example "What can I do you for?" is a common phrase / idiom, but would be considered poorly constructed English otherwise. The use of "literally" in non-literal contexts a poor indicator of what the word (supposedly) means, and probably a result of differing usage, or possibly lingual style. Any kind of innuendo has a pragmatic meaning, and whole words and phrases have metaphorical meaning - to the degree that they are no longer understood as metaphors. Finally, choice of words pragmatically communicate information too, e.g "those people" or "you people" can have a stigma attached despite being semantically neutral.
    - klyrs 6y ago
      Right. The point is, the definition you posted is one of several, and doesn't really address the issue at hand. You can't pretend that "guys" is gender neutral; that's one of many "tainted" contexts that invalidates the claim. When folks say "software guys", does "software" similarly taint the meaning because our society has decided that programming is "men's work?" In my experience, as a woman who talks to other women about this precise nuance of our language, it does feel othering to many if not most of us. Furthermore, when I overhear a coworker talking about a need to hire "a packaging guy", and then refer to this hypothetical person (comprising zero actual candidates for an ad which hasn't even been written) with he/him pronouns exclusively, am I then expected to believe that this use of "guy" is gender neutral?

formercoder 6y ago

It’s funny how dropping “guys” is such low hanging D&I fruit but also so hard to do. I try to use “folks” and honestly have started saying y’all a lot.

chestervonwinch 6y ago
As someone raised in the north US, living the last ~8 years between Florida and Texas has helped break the “you guys” habit. However, I admit that I still feel like an imposter whenever I use “y’all”.
- twalla 6y ago
  Y’all is a single syllable, rolls off the tongue and is gender neutral. By the power vested in me by the State of Texas, I hereby grant the reader (herein referred to as “all y’all”) permission to use “y’all” in perpetuity.
  - formercoder 6y ago
    Thanks, much appreciated.
- _nothing 6y ago
  I grew up near Chicago, currently live in Canada, and I say "y'all" all the time. I feel kind of self-conscious about it too but I asked a friend here if it was weird for me to say and she says she also says it all the time, so.

Chris2048 6y ago

According to Oxford Dictionary: "guys [plural] (informal) a group of people of either sex e.g 'Come on, you guys, let's get going!'" -- https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/american_english/guy https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/americ... This is also my (local) experience of the word usage: that it's used for groups of any sex.

klyrs 6y ago
So if I ask a straight man "how many guys have you slept with," how do you expect him to answer?
- Chris2048 6y ago
  English is an idiomatic language, there is no straight logical mapping between semantics of individual words and ultimate meaning. Add in purposeful ambiguity, innuendo and pragmatism, and the situation is more complex than either "guys always mean men", or "guys always means a group of any sex" - However, I'm not sure dictionaries aim to pin down every aspect of usage, rather than summarise the semantic. My own experience: "guys" referring to a specific group e.g. "those guys" can refer to mixed groups. "guys" with no clear target can be used abstractly as a more casual way to refer to men in general, but I rarely see men themselves use this (but usage may vary). Women, and women's magazines use it quite a bit. "How many guys have you slept with" is tainted as an indicator of general semantics b/c it is a partly idiomatic; as an example "What can I do you for?" is a common phrase / idiom, but would be considered poorly constructed English otherwise. The use of "literally" in non-literal contexts a poor indicator of what the word (supposedly) means, and probably a result of differing usage, or possibly lingual style. Any kind of innuendo has a pragmatic meaning, and whole words and phrases have metaphorical meaning - to the degree that they are no longer understood as metaphors. Finally, choice of words pragmatically communicate information too, e.g "those people" or "you people" can have a stigma attached despite being semantically neutral.
  - klyrs 6y ago
    Right. The point is, the definition you posted is one of several, and doesn't really address the issue at hand. You can't pretend that "guys" is gender neutral; that's one of many "tainted" contexts that invalidates the claim. When folks say "software guys", does "software" similarly taint the meaning because our society has decided that programming is "men's work?" In my experience, as a woman who talks to other women about this precise nuance of our language, it does feel othering to many if not most of us. Furthermore, when I overhear a coworker talking about a need to hire "a packaging guy", and then refer to this hypothetical person (comprising zero actual candidates for an ad which hasn't even been written) with he/him pronouns exclusively, am I then expected to believe that this use of "guy" is gender neutral?