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As much as I agree with Snowden, the USA government will never forgive the betrayal. Snowden acted for the people, not the government, reflecting the reality th

As much as I agree with Snowden, the USA government will never forgive the betrayal. Snowden acted for the people, not the government, reflecting the reality that the government by and large works for itself rather than the people. I'm sure it wasn't an easy decision for him to make. I would've done the same in the same position, though, but I am a single male without companies, properties, extended family reputations and so forth to protect so it's easy for guys like us to be so "noble". My head will probably asplode if Trump pardons him next term.

DethNinja 6y ago
Why would Trump pardon him? Biden vs Trump is all you need to know about state of democracy in the USA.
- pessimizer 6y ago
  Same reason Trump does anything. To own the libs and get some press.
- snazz 6y ago
  Low odds, but he has suggested that he might: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-snowden/trump-says-he-is-considering-pardon-for-leaker-edward-snowden-idUSKCN25B10Z https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-snowden/trum...
  - kzrdude 6y ago
    He's frequently talking for and against any given issue. And he is not trustworthy, so his word doesn't matter.
    - chrisco255 6y ago
      Trump happens to be a victim of FISA abuse so I wouldn't be surprised. Downvoters: Here is the Inspector General's report on the FBI's abuse of FISA against the Trump campaign: https://www.justice.gov/storage/120919-examination.pdf https://www.justice.gov/storage/120919-examination.pdf The FBI "persistently deceived a secret court to authorize surveilling a 2016 Trump presidential campaign official".
- vinay427 6y ago
  > Biden vs Trump is all you need to know about state of democracy in the USA. Why is that all you think you need to know? There are something like 30 other things to vote for on my local ballot that matter and this is true to varying extents in most every place.
  - Mountain_Skies 6y ago
    It's odd but seems to be quite common for people to know the least about the level of government closest to them. Most Americans know who is the president but I'd bet quite a few have no idea who represents them on their city council or county commission.
    - jessaustin 6y ago
      Local news has been destroyed. The newspapers who used to send a reporter to every municipal meeting no longer exist. (Well, there may be papers with the same names, but their new owners only budget enough for wire service reprints.) Other media has not stepped up to fill the role. Municipal officials could themselves put everything online, but they don't actually desire public scrutiny so they don't.
      - tssva 6y ago
        I think you will find that the records of most municipal/county meetings are available online. Providing them is required by law in almost every jurisdiction and mostly this is done by making them available online.
        jessaustin 6y ago
        I would draw a distinction between video recordings and whatever the meeting's acting secretary happened to note on a one-page form.
        tssva 6y ago
        My locality broadcasts all public meetings live on local cable networks and streaming on the internet. The videos of these meetings are also available to be watched after the fact. I checked the websites for two of the counties adjacent to mine and they do the same. I'm certain it isn't universal but I'm guessing it is a pretty widespread practice.
- wombatmobile 6y ago
  Biden v Trump is not a lack of democracy, since voters are able to respond to it in the forthcoming free and fair election.
  - justatdotin 6y ago
    I'm gonna cut off your arm. left or right? Now, don't say you had no choice in the matter.
    - corpMaverick 6y ago
      Look. No one is perfect. We all have our faults. But Trump is deeply flawed in many ways. And he hardly has any redeeming characteristics. If you think both are the same then you haven payed any attention or you are just pretending that your are neutral but in reality you love him. And you are definitely not a leftist. Even Chomsky and Bernie have warned us.
      - KnightHawk3 6y ago
        It's going to blow your mind when you find out there's a longstanding movement of people further to the left of Chomsky and Bernie
      - mindslight 6y ago
        You're right that there is a significant difference between candidates this time. But just because one of the teams has made their offering even worse does not validate the overall setup. Trump's exceptional terribleness is just another indicator of just how broken our democracy has become, complete with the sizable amount of people continuing to rally behind him out of spite. Although pragmatically I do find myself in the novel position of needing to support the status quo corporate authoritarian, as societal collapse is not conducive to freedom.
      - justatdotin 6y ago
        My comment was not about the candidates. or the parties. it was about what some people are willing to accept as "no lack of democracy". OK let's revise the options: I'm going to amputate either your left arm or your right thumb. It's quite obvious that you should rather lose your right thumb. And I gave you the opportunity to make a choice. If you disagree that this is democracy, then you secretly want to lose your left arm. Definitely not a leftist.
DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
> As much as I agree with Snowden, the USA government will never forgive the betrayal. I don't mean to distract from your main point, but IMO the only betrayal was by the NSA/CIA. Snowden was simply upholding his civic responsibilities.
- kelnos 6y ago
  That depends on your point of view. If you are the government, then Snowden absolutely did betray your trust. Unfortunately it also just happens to be the government that gets to decide what penalties there are for this sort of thing, even though the people were also betrayed by the three-letter agencies.
  - kyuudou 6y ago
    >If you are the government, then Snowden absolutely did betray your trust. And having gotten federal clearance in the past, I remember lots of very forbidding language indicating the extensive penalties that would occur if that clearance was violated. Even the guy who got pardoned by Trump, Kristian Saucier, who took a few pictures inside of a submarine where he worked[1], was basically ruined until pardon - prison, not honorable discharge, etc... 63 months of prison! That's how serious the federales are about enforcing classification and generally, I agree with it. Except in the case of exposing massive unconstitutional abuses of power including the wholesale disregard and contempt for the 4th amendment. 1: https://www.theday.com/article/20180309/NWS09/180309337 https://www.theday.com/article/20180309/NWS09/180309337
- kyuudou 6y ago
  No worries and I totally agree with you. Snowden had no other choice after the examples of whistleblower after whistleblower after whistleblower tried to follow the rules in place for disclosing the kind of abuse he observed and instead ended up getting railroaded, ghosted and otherwise ruined. It also allowed people like Bill Binney to come out to expand further on those revelations.
- Hnrobert42 6y ago
  Snowden betrayed everyone whose lives he endangered by breaking his oath. Over half my annual charitable giving goes to the ACLU and EPIC, but that guy can burn in hell.
TheDesolate0 6y ago
"next term"? Die, in agony.

DethNinja 6y ago

Why would Trump pardon him? Biden vs Trump is all you need to know about state of democracy in the USA.

pessimizer 6y ago
Same reason Trump does anything. To own the libs and get some press.
snazz 6y ago
Low odds, but he has suggested that he might: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-snowden/trump-says-he-is-considering-pardon-for-leaker-edward-snowden-idUSKCN25B10Z https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-snowden/trum...
- kzrdude 6y ago
  He's frequently talking for and against any given issue. And he is not trustworthy, so his word doesn't matter.
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    Trump happens to be a victim of FISA abuse so I wouldn't be surprised. Downvoters: Here is the Inspector General's report on the FBI's abuse of FISA against the Trump campaign: https://www.justice.gov/storage/120919-examination.pdf https://www.justice.gov/storage/120919-examination.pdf The FBI "persistently deceived a secret court to authorize surveilling a 2016 Trump presidential campaign official".
vinay427 6y ago
> Biden vs Trump is all you need to know about state of democracy in the USA. Why is that all you think you need to know? There are something like 30 other things to vote for on my local ballot that matter and this is true to varying extents in most every place.
- Mountain_Skies 6y ago
  It's odd but seems to be quite common for people to know the least about the level of government closest to them. Most Americans know who is the president but I'd bet quite a few have no idea who represents them on their city council or county commission.
  - jessaustin 6y ago
    Local news has been destroyed. The newspapers who used to send a reporter to every municipal meeting no longer exist. (Well, there may be papers with the same names, but their new owners only budget enough for wire service reprints.) Other media has not stepped up to fill the role. Municipal officials could themselves put everything online, but they don't actually desire public scrutiny so they don't.
    - tssva 6y ago
      I think you will find that the records of most municipal/county meetings are available online. Providing them is required by law in almost every jurisdiction and mostly this is done by making them available online.
      - jessaustin 6y ago
        I would draw a distinction between video recordings and whatever the meeting's acting secretary happened to note on a one-page form.
        tssva 6y ago
        My locality broadcasts all public meetings live on local cable networks and streaming on the internet. The videos of these meetings are also available to be watched after the fact. I checked the websites for two of the counties adjacent to mine and they do the same. I'm certain it isn't universal but I'm guessing it is a pretty widespread practice.
wombatmobile 6y ago
Biden v Trump is not a lack of democracy, since voters are able to respond to it in the forthcoming free and fair election.
- justatdotin 6y ago
  I'm gonna cut off your arm. left or right? Now, don't say you had no choice in the matter.
  - corpMaverick 6y ago
    Look. No one is perfect. We all have our faults. But Trump is deeply flawed in many ways. And he hardly has any redeeming characteristics. If you think both are the same then you haven payed any attention or you are just pretending that your are neutral but in reality you love him. And you are definitely not a leftist. Even Chomsky and Bernie have warned us.
    - KnightHawk3 6y ago
      It's going to blow your mind when you find out there's a longstanding movement of people further to the left of Chomsky and Bernie
    - mindslight 6y ago
      You're right that there is a significant difference between candidates this time. But just because one of the teams has made their offering even worse does not validate the overall setup. Trump's exceptional terribleness is just another indicator of just how broken our democracy has become, complete with the sizable amount of people continuing to rally behind him out of spite. Although pragmatically I do find myself in the novel position of needing to support the status quo corporate authoritarian, as societal collapse is not conducive to freedom.
    - justatdotin 6y ago
      My comment was not about the candidates. or the parties. it was about what some people are willing to accept as "no lack of democracy". OK let's revise the options: I'm going to amputate either your left arm or your right thumb. It's quite obvious that you should rather lose your right thumb. And I gave you the opportunity to make a choice. If you disagree that this is democracy, then you secretly want to lose your left arm. Definitely not a leftist.

DoofusOfDeath 6y ago

> As much as I agree with Snowden, the USA government will never forgive the betrayal. I don't mean to distract from your main point, but IMO the only betrayal was by the NSA/CIA. Snowden was simply upholding his civic responsibilities.

kelnos 6y ago
That depends on your point of view. If you are the government, then Snowden absolutely did betray your trust. Unfortunately it also just happens to be the government that gets to decide what penalties there are for this sort of thing, even though the people were also betrayed by the three-letter agencies.
- kyuudou 6y ago
  >If you are the government, then Snowden absolutely did betray your trust. And having gotten federal clearance in the past, I remember lots of very forbidding language indicating the extensive penalties that would occur if that clearance was violated. Even the guy who got pardoned by Trump, Kristian Saucier, who took a few pictures inside of a submarine where he worked[1], was basically ruined until pardon - prison, not honorable discharge, etc... 63 months of prison! That's how serious the federales are about enforcing classification and generally, I agree with it. Except in the case of exposing massive unconstitutional abuses of power including the wholesale disregard and contempt for the 4th amendment. 1: https://www.theday.com/article/20180309/NWS09/180309337 https://www.theday.com/article/20180309/NWS09/180309337
kyuudou 6y ago
No worries and I totally agree with you. Snowden had no other choice after the examples of whistleblower after whistleblower after whistleblower tried to follow the rules in place for disclosing the kind of abuse he observed and instead ended up getting railroaded, ghosted and otherwise ruined. It also allowed people like Bill Binney to come out to expand further on those revelations.
Hnrobert42 6y ago
Snowden betrayed everyone whose lives he endangered by breaking his oath. Over half my annual charitable giving goes to the ACLU and EPIC, but that guy can burn in hell.

TheDesolate0 6y ago

"next term"? Die, in agony.