4 ms·

yes. And more to the point what happened to the people who used to _work_ in them? 'Cause those jobs are now being done outside the US by people prepared to wor

yes. And more to the point what happened to the people who used to _work_ in them? 'Cause those jobs are now being done outside the US by people prepared to work for far less. If decentralizing is an option then the US border certainly isn't a barrier. Understand that a telecomuting job is the easiest job to offshore. At the end of the day if you never come in to the office you might as well be living in India. Cause then we'd have to pay you less. Oh wait, there's some super-keen, super bright chap in India who'll do your work for a tenth of the price? hmm let me think about that for a while.

jacques_chester 16y ago
If they're going to outsource you, they'll outsource you. Whether you come to the office or telecommute won't make a huge difference to the decision when you're looking at wage differences of 5x-20x. In fact, a telecommuter is cheaper than onsite -- much lower overheads. Employees in the office mean renting office space, getting insurance, paying for utilities ... overhead which can add up to a lot of money quite quickly. If they're at home you can pay them more and still come out ahead.
- bruce511 16y ago
  "If they're going to outsource you, they'll outsource you. Whether you come to the office or telecommute won't make a huge difference to the decision when you're looking at wage differences of 5x-20x." I disagree. Many companies wouldn't outsource because the shift from having workers-in-house to workers-remote is a big one. I _know_ I can get staff in India or China much cheaper than here, but there are enormous benefits (perceived or real) to the employer for having people in the office. The point I'm making is that when a worker presents such a terrific argument for tele-computing, they're also presenting a terrific argument for out-sourcing. Now personally I'm not a big fan of tele-commuting. We've had some remote workers in the past, and it didn't work out. Communication is the key of course, but at the end of the day, for better or worse, it simply didn't work out. Now we operate far more like a flexitime system, people come in every day, but there's a lot of flexibility with regard to hours. But my root point here is that the same arguments for and against telecommuting are the same arguments for and against outsourcing. The one begets the other. Outsourcing is just telecommuting with "cheaper" added.
  - danssig 16y ago
    >I _know_ I can get staff in India or China much cheaper than here No you can't. If you could more companies would be doing it. You get what you pay for. When you get cheap outsourced labor in India you're getting people with no experience and insanely high turn over rate. If you want people from India with more experience you'll find them out west somewhere making a better salary. The market rate is the market rate. If you suddenly switched all programmers to being remote then the guys in India would initially be getting offered so many jobs that they'd have to push their prices up in response. You're making the classic mistake of assuming cost = what it costs me + some profit %. It doesn't, it's about perceived value and nothing else.
    - bruce511 16y ago
      It's interesting to see the knee-jerk reaction when someone talks about Indian or Chinese programmers. The hypothesis that "all smart Indian programmers are in the US" is, well, somewhat naive. Sure not _all_ Indian programmers are great, not all are even good, but that's true everywhere. Finding the good ones will take as much work there as it does here. There's an awful lot of chaff. But there are good ones, even great ones. And a _very_ tiny percentage of a billion is still a lot. So let me make the argument less prone to misunderstanding. When you open the door to making a post "work remotely" you are competing with programmers in Ireland, Australia, South Africa, Israel, Holland, Germany, New Zealand and so on. All have excellent English language skills (ok, apart from the pesky Germans), excellent work ethics, and in many cases require a living wage below that found in the US. When your job requires you go to the office, you're competing with say a million others who could do that job. You might even be the very best. But are you still the best if we expand the pool to include a billion people?
      - jacques_chester 16y ago
        I am Australian and I don't see why American programmers would deserve any special treatment over Indians, Kiwis, Saffies etc. Anyway, Australians are more expensive than Americans at this point. The AUD has surged against the USD and property prices and the rents linked to them have spiralled out of control.
danssig 16y ago
>Oh wait, there's some super-keen, super bright chap in India who'll do your work for a tenth of the price? Except he wont. If he's as good as you are his telecommuting rates will be close to what yours are. Think about it.
- bruce511 16y ago
  "If he's as good as you are his telecommuting rates will be close to what yours are." Sorry mate, but no. A developers rate factors in a number of things, including cost of living. A guy working from his home in Silicon Valley charges more than a guy sitting at home in Iowa or wherever (to make the same disposable income). The guy in Iowa knows he can work for less, but still make more, in terms of disposable income. When it comes to foreign workers he can charge twice the going "local" rate and still cost way less than some guy living in the US.
  - jacques_chester 16y ago
    And I suppose the Silicon Valley programmer is being forced to stay in the valley?
  - danssig 16y ago
    >A developers rate factors in a number of things, including cost of living. When deciding what your price floor is, yes cost of living figures in. But what development is worth is its market price (perceived value). It doesn't depend on where the person lives. The main thing you're actually highlighting here is that if we move to more telecommuting, developers will need to get better at understanding how market pricing actually works and that their development time is a market resource like everything else. >The guy in Iowa knows he can work for less, but still make more, in terms of disposable income. Sure, and if all programming jobs went telecommuting this guy would have so many more job offers he would have to push his own prices up.

jacques_chester 16y ago

If they're going to outsource you, they'll outsource you. Whether you come to the office or telecommute won't make a huge difference to the decision when you're looking at wage differences of 5x-20x. In fact, a telecommuter is cheaper than onsite -- much lower overheads. Employees in the office mean renting office space, getting insurance, paying for utilities ... overhead which can add up to a lot of money quite quickly. If they're at home you can pay them more and still come out ahead.

bruce511 16y ago
"If they're going to outsource you, they'll outsource you. Whether you come to the office or telecommute won't make a huge difference to the decision when you're looking at wage differences of 5x-20x." I disagree. Many companies wouldn't outsource because the shift from having workers-in-house to workers-remote is a big one. I _know_ I can get staff in India or China much cheaper than here, but there are enormous benefits (perceived or real) to the employer for having people in the office. The point I'm making is that when a worker presents such a terrific argument for tele-computing, they're also presenting a terrific argument for out-sourcing. Now personally I'm not a big fan of tele-commuting. We've had some remote workers in the past, and it didn't work out. Communication is the key of course, but at the end of the day, for better or worse, it simply didn't work out. Now we operate far more like a flexitime system, people come in every day, but there's a lot of flexibility with regard to hours. But my root point here is that the same arguments for and against telecommuting are the same arguments for and against outsourcing. The one begets the other. Outsourcing is just telecommuting with "cheaper" added.
- danssig 16y ago
  >I _know_ I can get staff in India or China much cheaper than here No you can't. If you could more companies would be doing it. You get what you pay for. When you get cheap outsourced labor in India you're getting people with no experience and insanely high turn over rate. If you want people from India with more experience you'll find them out west somewhere making a better salary. The market rate is the market rate. If you suddenly switched all programmers to being remote then the guys in India would initially be getting offered so many jobs that they'd have to push their prices up in response. You're making the classic mistake of assuming cost = what it costs me + some profit %. It doesn't, it's about perceived value and nothing else.
  - bruce511 16y ago
    It's interesting to see the knee-jerk reaction when someone talks about Indian or Chinese programmers. The hypothesis that "all smart Indian programmers are in the US" is, well, somewhat naive. Sure not _all_ Indian programmers are great, not all are even good, but that's true everywhere. Finding the good ones will take as much work there as it does here. There's an awful lot of chaff. But there are good ones, even great ones. And a _very_ tiny percentage of a billion is still a lot. So let me make the argument less prone to misunderstanding. When you open the door to making a post "work remotely" you are competing with programmers in Ireland, Australia, South Africa, Israel, Holland, Germany, New Zealand and so on. All have excellent English language skills (ok, apart from the pesky Germans), excellent work ethics, and in many cases require a living wage below that found in the US. When your job requires you go to the office, you're competing with say a million others who could do that job. You might even be the very best. But are you still the best if we expand the pool to include a billion people?
    - jacques_chester 16y ago
      I am Australian and I don't see why American programmers would deserve any special treatment over Indians, Kiwis, Saffies etc. Anyway, Australians are more expensive than Americans at this point. The AUD has surged against the USD and property prices and the rents linked to them have spiralled out of control.

danssig 16y ago

>Oh wait, there's some super-keen, super bright chap in India who'll do your work for a tenth of the price? Except he wont. If he's as good as you are his telecommuting rates will be close to what yours are. Think about it.

bruce511 16y ago
"If he's as good as you are his telecommuting rates will be close to what yours are." Sorry mate, but no. A developers rate factors in a number of things, including cost of living. A guy working from his home in Silicon Valley charges more than a guy sitting at home in Iowa or wherever (to make the same disposable income). The guy in Iowa knows he can work for less, but still make more, in terms of disposable income. When it comes to foreign workers he can charge twice the going "local" rate and still cost way less than some guy living in the US.
- jacques_chester 16y ago
  And I suppose the Silicon Valley programmer is being forced to stay in the valley?
- danssig 16y ago
  >A developers rate factors in a number of things, including cost of living. When deciding what your price floor is, yes cost of living figures in. But what development is worth is its market price (perceived value). It doesn't depend on where the person lives. The main thing you're actually highlighting here is that if we move to more telecommuting, developers will need to get better at understanding how market pricing actually works and that their development time is a market resource like everything else. >The guy in Iowa knows he can work for less, but still make more, in terms of disposable income. Sure, and if all programming jobs went telecommuting this guy would have so many more job offers he would have to push his own prices up.