4 ms·

In this regard, I often think this is where a union or guild or something along those lines would be helpful. I've studied labor history extensively so I'm fami

In this regard, I often think this is where a union or guild or something along those lines would be helpful. I've studied labor history extensively so I'm familiar with all of the downsides to a union. Some sort of collectivisation is needed to have support and collective input in cases such as this. The ones building it should have a voice. A single engineer putting their foot down is brave, but thousands putting their collective feet down can change the world.

dantheman 6y ago
Yeah, it's great when police unions fight against reducing sentences. We are in positions of privilege; we should build funds/organizations to protect and help whistleblowers; help them find jobs, have a fund to support them -- we don't need a union for this.
- bourgwaletariat 6y ago
  Well, here I am. Whistleblowing. Unemployed. Nothing and no one to support me. Suffering from C-PTSD every day. Unable to sleep at night, because I may be murdered for reporting a potential billion-dollar money laundering scheme. Fearing to even write this, but I feel compelled to, because I have nothing else. I've gone days without sleep. Woken up afraid for my life. My future. Knowing I may never work again. I may never be employed again. I may be on the street. Homeless. Unable to trust anyone ever again. There's no one. No one. Do you understand that? I'd happily have a union to protect me right now. My life may be over because there isn't one. What about people who want to do the right thing and so they are crushed by evil? Do you know how much literature there is out there about blowing the whistle? Do you know how many people are in prison right now for it? Being tortured every day. Julian Assange. Chelsea Manning. Karen Silkwood was poisoned and probably murdered and she was a leader in a union. What about them? Who is protecting them? Who protected them? No one. They are going to live a life of torture and die in prison because of the truth. Who is protecting the truth? Who is enabling the truth to exist? I spoke up and had to do it, I had to, I couldn't not do it, despite the very real threat that I might be murdered in my sleep. I can't stand to see this happening around me every day. I can't do it anymore. I don't think people really know. I don't think you really know. This isn't a movie to me.
  - yummypaint 6y ago
    You might consider setting up a dead man's switch to do an automatic document dump if the worst happens, but don't tell anyone about it. A notarized affadavid stating the situation and your concerns for your safety might be appropriate to include. Your lawyer could also do the equivalent for you. Publicity might offer some protection. Try to make your demise a poor business proposition for the criminals. Thank you for doing the right thing. It's heartening to hear that there are still people out there who live with integrity.
  - galaxyLogic 6y ago
    I don't know your situation but I imagine if I was in such I would try to contact as many left of center media outlets to get the story out. Also seek help from American Civil Liberties Union, whistle-blowing is a civil liberty.
  - dmerks 6y ago
    Sacrificing oneself for a chance at exposing a story may not be worth the risk? We hear of anonymous sources all the time that make it, don't we? Perhaps there are other ways to bring on change. I hope whomever you denounced doesn't consider you a threat anymore. I hope you manage to overcome the PTSD. Seek help if you can, if you haven't already.
  - icedchai 6y ago
    What sort of fraud was it? You don't need to name the company or anything, just interested in the general nature.
  - ry454 6y ago
    You're way too emotional. I'd suggest to read the often recommended on HN small book "The Gervais Principle" to understand how most organizations work. And calibrate your emotions, seriously: the more energy you invest in them, the stronger they become. Recognizing the right thing is good, but not enough. What you did is you went to the forest to teach wolves good manners and got almost eaten alive, but wolves are wolves and you can't blame them. A better approach would be to undermine the project from inside. They tell you to implement a fraud scheme? Fine. You appear very professional, knowledgeable and volunteer to coordinate the project, while secretly you add subtle, but serious cracks in the foundation, and document the process for the future litigation. You say you reported it to the gov eventually. I'd contact FBI, again secretly, work with them to gather information, install a couple legal landmines and leave with a plausible cause half a year before the ship is scheduled to sink.
closeparen 6y ago
How often are unions used to enforce political/ethical stances about management’s treatment of third parties, rather than workers? I hadn’t really considered altruistic uses of collective bargaining power.
- CobrastanJorji 6y ago
  Look at professional guilds like the American Medical Association or the Bar Associations. They both major focuses on professional ethics and use their power to enforce those ethics, both by being able to bargain with corporations or the government and by holding power over their members. Getting disbarred is the end of your career as a lawyer, and so it behooves you to comply with their ethical standards even if you don't personally care about them. It's a little harder for programmers because the ethical bar is less agreed-upon. "Doctors should help people" and "lawyers shouldn't steal their client's money" are pretty nearly 100% agreed-upon by the professionals, but there's still a lot of disagreement on what is and isn't ethical for a programmer to do.
  - closeparen 6y ago
    It appears to me that law and medical licensing bodies are advocates for the public against the professions. It may be incidentally beneficial to the professions in some ways (trust, etc) but the same can be said of environmental and safety regulators (accidents cost time, etc). In what sense are they unions? "Software engineers need to be protected from the employers" and "the public needs to be protected from software engineers" seem like very different positions, in fact I can imagine both organizations existing in a sometimes-adversarial relationship.
    - Twisol 6y ago
      In the context of this thread, it seems very much to be the case of "the public needs to be protected from software engineers." The N'th ancestor post very explicitly says that "we" are causing this problem. The idea being, if professional strictures were imposed upon us, that would give us a stronger ability to push back against those who set tasks in conflict with those strictures.

dantheman 6y ago

Yeah, it's great when police unions fight against reducing sentences. We are in positions of privilege; we should build funds/organizations to protect and help whistleblowers; help them find jobs, have a fund to support them -- we don't need a union for this.

bourgwaletariat 6y ago
Well, here I am. Whistleblowing. Unemployed. Nothing and no one to support me. Suffering from C-PTSD every day. Unable to sleep at night, because I may be murdered for reporting a potential billion-dollar money laundering scheme. Fearing to even write this, but I feel compelled to, because I have nothing else. I've gone days without sleep. Woken up afraid for my life. My future. Knowing I may never work again. I may never be employed again. I may be on the street. Homeless. Unable to trust anyone ever again. There's no one. No one. Do you understand that? I'd happily have a union to protect me right now. My life may be over because there isn't one. What about people who want to do the right thing and so they are crushed by evil? Do you know how much literature there is out there about blowing the whistle? Do you know how many people are in prison right now for it? Being tortured every day. Julian Assange. Chelsea Manning. Karen Silkwood was poisoned and probably murdered and she was a leader in a union. What about them? Who is protecting them? Who protected them? No one. They are going to live a life of torture and die in prison because of the truth. Who is protecting the truth? Who is enabling the truth to exist? I spoke up and had to do it, I had to, I couldn't not do it, despite the very real threat that I might be murdered in my sleep. I can't stand to see this happening around me every day. I can't do it anymore. I don't think people really know. I don't think you really know. This isn't a movie to me.
- yummypaint 6y ago
  You might consider setting up a dead man's switch to do an automatic document dump if the worst happens, but don't tell anyone about it. A notarized affadavid stating the situation and your concerns for your safety might be appropriate to include. Your lawyer could also do the equivalent for you. Publicity might offer some protection. Try to make your demise a poor business proposition for the criminals. Thank you for doing the right thing. It's heartening to hear that there are still people out there who live with integrity.
- galaxyLogic 6y ago
  I don't know your situation but I imagine if I was in such I would try to contact as many left of center media outlets to get the story out. Also seek help from American Civil Liberties Union, whistle-blowing is a civil liberty.
- dmerks 6y ago
  Sacrificing oneself for a chance at exposing a story may not be worth the risk? We hear of anonymous sources all the time that make it, don't we? Perhaps there are other ways to bring on change. I hope whomever you denounced doesn't consider you a threat anymore. I hope you manage to overcome the PTSD. Seek help if you can, if you haven't already.
- icedchai 6y ago
  What sort of fraud was it? You don't need to name the company or anything, just interested in the general nature.
- ry454 6y ago
  You're way too emotional. I'd suggest to read the often recommended on HN small book "The Gervais Principle" to understand how most organizations work. And calibrate your emotions, seriously: the more energy you invest in them, the stronger they become. Recognizing the right thing is good, but not enough. What you did is you went to the forest to teach wolves good manners and got almost eaten alive, but wolves are wolves and you can't blame them. A better approach would be to undermine the project from inside. They tell you to implement a fraud scheme? Fine. You appear very professional, knowledgeable and volunteer to coordinate the project, while secretly you add subtle, but serious cracks in the foundation, and document the process for the future litigation. You say you reported it to the gov eventually. I'd contact FBI, again secretly, work with them to gather information, install a couple legal landmines and leave with a plausible cause half a year before the ship is scheduled to sink.

closeparen 6y ago

How often are unions used to enforce political/ethical stances about management’s treatment of third parties, rather than workers? I hadn’t really considered altruistic uses of collective bargaining power.

CobrastanJorji 6y ago
Look at professional guilds like the American Medical Association or the Bar Associations. They both major focuses on professional ethics and use their power to enforce those ethics, both by being able to bargain with corporations or the government and by holding power over their members. Getting disbarred is the end of your career as a lawyer, and so it behooves you to comply with their ethical standards even if you don't personally care about them. It's a little harder for programmers because the ethical bar is less agreed-upon. "Doctors should help people" and "lawyers shouldn't steal their client's money" are pretty nearly 100% agreed-upon by the professionals, but there's still a lot of disagreement on what is and isn't ethical for a programmer to do.
- closeparen 6y ago
  It appears to me that law and medical licensing bodies are advocates for the public against the professions. It may be incidentally beneficial to the professions in some ways (trust, etc) but the same can be said of environmental and safety regulators (accidents cost time, etc). In what sense are they unions? "Software engineers need to be protected from the employers" and "the public needs to be protected from software engineers" seem like very different positions, in fact I can imagine both organizations existing in a sometimes-adversarial relationship.
  - Twisol 6y ago
    In the context of this thread, it seems very much to be the case of "the public needs to be protected from software engineers." The N'th ancestor post very explicitly says that "we" are causing this problem. The idea being, if professional strictures were imposed upon us, that would give us a stronger ability to push back against those who set tasks in conflict with those strictures.