4 ms·

We're talking about casual beginners, which is not the same as beginner. I started my career in Lithuania, where a student will earn no more than a few hundred

We're talking about casual beginners, which is not the same as beginner. I started my career in Lithuania, where a student will earn no more than a few hundred eur. JLC delivers a custom board for 7Eur within a MONTH! For 7eur I can get a perfboard, ATTiny2313 and a bunch of components and make a thing... in about 4 hours. I used to make CAN interface boards without SMD and with tools that cost me roughly 20Eur in total. Never needed a hot air station - so your claim that it's nothing special is complete delusion of reality. I couldn't even afford a breadboard... not to mention specialist MCU programmer.

StavrosK 6y ago
How do you use perfboards? I never managed to get the wires in the same holes as the component's leg, it was such a hassle that it was literally easier to make SMD PCBs with a 3D printer than to solder on a perfboard.
- kps 6y ago
  You're telling the chap who couldn't afford a breadboard to use a 3D printer.
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    I'm telling the chap who couldn't afford a breadboard that I find soldering perfboard very hard.
- JAlexoid 6y ago
  The wires go through the holes next to the pin, not into the same hole. There's a million tutorials and examples online. And you go the same route - cost and accessibility have nothing to do with "how easy". How would some beginner in a country with $300 average monthly income be able to 3d print stuff? Advocating for SMD only is exclusionary delusional elitism, until working with SMDs becomes completely financially trivial for the majority of the world's would be electronics engineers.
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    Next to the pin? Are these boards were adjacent pins are connected? Mine are singles. > How would some beginner in a country with $300 average monthly income be able to 3d print stuff? I am from (and live in) such a country, you just save up a lot. Sure, it's not a disposable device, but it's not unobtainable.
    - JAlexoid 6y ago
      1. You can solder together the copper hole frames or stretch a wire and attach it to the holes. It's less tricky than trying to solder sub millimeter SMD contact with a 3mm point soldering tip 2. "Save up a lot" - that's an obstacle that prevents a lot of people from realising that they can create beautiful things. And that is literally the reason why I am vehemently opposed moving away from through hole logic components. Lower barriers to entry = richer world full of beautiful things.
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    Wirewrap is underrated. Its definitely tedious, but its solder-free and surprisingly reliable. Its more expensive than soldering however: wire-wraps are best on header-pin posts, not on the ICs directly. So you should buy sockets-to-wirewrap posts if you plan to wire-wrap. You can wire-wrap on the IC directly, but its definitely not as reliable so I can't recommend the practice. If we're talking about these small designs with only a dozen or two connections, wire-wrap is more than sufficient. Besides, you can still largely use a soldered Veroboard for most of your design, and just use the occasional wire-wrap for a harder to handle point-to-point connection. Some beginner tutorials: * https://hackaday.com/2014/12/18/wire-wrap-101/ https://hackaday.com/2014/12/18/wire-wrap-101/ * https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/working-with-wire/how-to-use-a-wire-wrap-tool https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/working-with-wire/how-t... I think having a few wire-wrap tools will help out a low-cost hobbyist. I'd estimate $50 in various parts (wire-wrap wire, a few dedicated wire-wrap sockets), but its largely "compatible" with soldering and DIP components. (Works with perfboard, veroboard, etc. etc. and everything you're soldering with)
- numpad0 6y ago
  You’re supposed to insert wires on adjacent holes and bridge together. Harder than glueing an SSOP and running wires to it though.
foldr 6y ago
>Never needed a hot air station - so your claim that it's nothing special is complete delusion of reality. I think you're going a bit over the top with the rhetoric there. Hot air stations don't cost more than soldering irons. I bought mine new for £35. I'm not saying that everyone in the world can easily afford a hot air station. But it's wrong to characterize it as some kind of exotic, highly expensive piece of equipment just because you didn't happen to own one. You can also just use a cheap toaster oven (though that makes rework more difficult).

StavrosK 6y ago

How do you use perfboards? I never managed to get the wires in the same holes as the component's leg, it was such a hassle that it was literally easier to make SMD PCBs with a 3D printer than to solder on a perfboard.

kps 6y ago
You're telling the chap who couldn't afford a breadboard to use a 3D printer.
- StavrosK 6y ago
  I'm telling the chap who couldn't afford a breadboard that I find soldering perfboard very hard.
JAlexoid 6y ago
The wires go through the holes next to the pin, not into the same hole. There's a million tutorials and examples online. And you go the same route - cost and accessibility have nothing to do with "how easy". How would some beginner in a country with $300 average monthly income be able to 3d print stuff? Advocating for SMD only is exclusionary delusional elitism, until working with SMDs becomes completely financially trivial for the majority of the world's would be electronics engineers.
- StavrosK 6y ago
  Next to the pin? Are these boards were adjacent pins are connected? Mine are singles. > How would some beginner in a country with $300 average monthly income be able to 3d print stuff? I am from (and live in) such a country, you just save up a lot. Sure, it's not a disposable device, but it's not unobtainable.
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
    1. You can solder together the copper hole frames or stretch a wire and attach it to the holes. It's less tricky than trying to solder sub millimeter SMD contact with a 3mm point soldering tip 2. "Save up a lot" - that's an obstacle that prevents a lot of people from realising that they can create beautiful things. And that is literally the reason why I am vehemently opposed moving away from through hole logic components. Lower barriers to entry = richer world full of beautiful things.
- dragontamer 6y ago
  Wirewrap is underrated. Its definitely tedious, but its solder-free and surprisingly reliable. Its more expensive than soldering however: wire-wraps are best on header-pin posts, not on the ICs directly. So you should buy sockets-to-wirewrap posts if you plan to wire-wrap. You can wire-wrap on the IC directly, but its definitely not as reliable so I can't recommend the practice. If we're talking about these small designs with only a dozen or two connections, wire-wrap is more than sufficient. Besides, you can still largely use a soldered Veroboard for most of your design, and just use the occasional wire-wrap for a harder to handle point-to-point connection. Some beginner tutorials: * https://hackaday.com/2014/12/18/wire-wrap-101/ https://hackaday.com/2014/12/18/wire-wrap-101/ * https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/working-with-wire/how-to-use-a-wire-wrap-tool https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/working-with-wire/how-t... I think having a few wire-wrap tools will help out a low-cost hobbyist. I'd estimate $50 in various parts (wire-wrap wire, a few dedicated wire-wrap sockets), but its largely "compatible" with soldering and DIP components. (Works with perfboard, veroboard, etc. etc. and everything you're soldering with)
numpad0 6y ago
You’re supposed to insert wires on adjacent holes and bridge together. Harder than glueing an SSOP and running wires to it though.

foldr 6y ago

>Never needed a hot air station - so your claim that it's nothing special is complete delusion of reality. I think you're going a bit over the top with the rhetoric there. Hot air stations don't cost more than soldering irons. I bought mine new for £35. I'm not saying that everyone in the world can easily afford a hot air station. But it's wrong to characterize it as some kind of exotic, highly expensive piece of equipment just because you didn't happen to own one. You can also just use a cheap toaster oven (though that makes rework more difficult).