7 ms·

You say this, but most prison time is done for extreme crime that everyone agrees with. In addition this, prison time is usually reserved for not just crimes we

You say this, but most prison time is done for extreme crime that everyone agrees with. In addition this, prison time is usually reserved for not just crimes we agree with but crimes we all agree are extreme. Case in point for this specific case it was violent crime, which I'm sure we can all agree is way worse than a racist tweet.

VBprogrammer 6y ago
Isn't a huge amount of prison time in the US handed out for selling banned substances to other consenting adults?
- nickff 6y ago
  Drug convictions make up a large portion of federal inmates, but federal inmates are a minority of the prison population.
- minikites 6y ago
  Yep. Drug laws (and the police/legal system in general) also disproportionately targets people of color.
- iguy 6y ago
  About 10-20% of prisoners are in for nothing more serious than drugs, and if you try to exclude trafficking, then it's closer to the 10% end. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html
- CobrastanJorji 6y ago
  In total, about a half million people are in jail or prison for having, using, or selling drugs. Drug crimes account for about half of Federal prisoners. But percentage-wise, when you add up federal, state, and local prisons and jails, drugs are not as large a percentage as you'd think. Another half million people in prisons or jails haven't been convicted of any crime at all, either because they can't afford bail or because they're just being processed today. If you had to guess what someone went to jail for, and you only knew they were in a State penitentiary, violent crime would be your best guess. Here's a bit pie chart: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html
  - staticassertion 6y ago
    This is people in prison, not people sent to prison. Given that violent crimes have longer sentences, wouldn't that skew the existing count in prison considerably towards violent offenders, even if many more people are sent to prison for other offenses? Further, because there would be shorter sentences, you're far more likely to encounter a candidate with a lesser sentence.
  - joncrane 6y ago
    What's not captured here is that drugs are a contributing factor to many of the crimes committed. An old and rather tired example is the junky stealing to get his next fix. The crime is robbery, but the cause is drugs. I would argue (having been in jail myself multiple times, and, by the way, thanks to a lot of factors, now very happily and gainfully employed) that drugs are at the very least a co-factor on the vast majority of crimes in the USA.
    - vkou 6y ago
      I think most people understand this. What I'd like to see is the junkie to just get drugs from the government. It's cheaper for society to pay for a $20 fix (That costs $2 to produce), then for $500 dollars in property damage, a stolen $200 item that gets fenced for $20, a cop to show up to do a police report, and then, months down the road, an arrest, prison time, etc, etc.
      - CobrastanJorji 6y ago
        Same thing with prisoners and rehabilitation. Letting prisoners attend colleges for free is a remarkably good government investment. The same thing is true about the homeless. Homeless services are expensive. It's cheaper to get them apartments, even if you still offer them all of the support services you were offering before. But whenever you propose these things, social conservatives seem to come out of the woodwork and argue that it's not fair for prisoners or homeless people to get expensive stuff for free. Why should you get something good for doing a bad thing? Why should the homeless guy get an apartment that you'd paying $1000 a month for? Why should your taxes be buying drugs for that junkie? Even if you have to spend more taxes by not giving them these things, your sense of justice demands it be so.
Jtsummers 6y ago
> You say this, but most prison time is done for extreme crime that everyone agrees with. In addition this, prison time is usually reserved for not just crimes we agree with but crimes we all agree are extreme. If only that were accurate. Prison time in the US is not given out in proportion to the seriousness of the crime, and the amount of prison time is highly variable depending on locale, race of offender, race of victim, and many other factors.
- heyoni 6y ago
  The two are not mutually exclusive. You can have a majority of serious offenders in your prison population that also happen to be from certain locales/race/etc...
sebmellen 6y ago
I would hope that all agree a violent crime is worse than a racist tweet. However, there is a sentiment of sympathy afforded to murderers (that they're somehow deserving of rehabilitation) which is not always extended to those who have tweeted racist things. Perhaps this comes because a murder can be seen as a sad result of circumstances. Perhaps the criminal only had to murder because they had a bad upbringing and needed the cash and it was a horrible mistake. On the other hand, people perceived as racist are permanently marked as being ideologically dangerous. Mainly, I think this comes because racist tweeters can be seen as more directly responsible for their actions than a murderer. Of course, this line of reasoning is nonsense, but it appears to be quite common. Jon Ronson has a great TED talk about this, titled "How one tweet can ruin your life": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIP6fI0NAI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIP6fI0NAI. I would recommend that the grandparent post watch this.
- staticassertion 6y ago
  I'm perfectly willing to: a) Understand violent criminals have made amends and are rehabilitated b) Believe that people who were once racist are no longer racist Both issues are, to me, a 'sad result of circumstances'. So all of that seems fine.
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    As am I. The point I was trying to make was that there isn't really a "path to rehabilitation" for people who have made very minor missteps online. In the case of the linked TED talk, the persecuted woman made a mistake, and was not a "career-racist". I think even accusing her of racism is a distortion of the word — she made a bad joke in bad taste. Meanwhile, there is an established, albeit broken path to rehabilitation for ex-convicts. There is also a certain faction of the left which seems to be more willing to accept prison reform than "tweet-reform". I think it should be far more easy to rehabilitate oneself from a bad tweet than a murder, and that they are entirely different classes of offences.
    - staticassertion 6y ago
rdimartino 6y ago
I'm not sure your statements about prison time are accurate, at least in the US. According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, 46.2% of inmates are in for drug offenses[1] and there is definitely disagreement about whether that should be a crime, let alone an extreme crime. Additionally, 78.6% of inmates are serving sentences longer than 5 years[2], which by necessity means that a large portion of those are for drug offenses. [1] https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offen... [2] https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_sentences.jsp https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_sente...
- iguy 6y ago
  But only about 10% of prisoners are in Federal custody. Among those in state prisons, drug possession is about 3% of cases (about equal to DUI plus fraud cases). Other drug charges make up about 10%.
  - qes 6y ago
    > in state prisons, drug possession is about 3% of cases You're going to need to source that unbelievably low number. In my state, drug crimes represent the second largest proportion of prison inmates - a bit fewer than criminal sexual conduct a bit more than homicide: https://mn.gov/doc/assets/Adult%20Prison%20Population%20Summary%207-1-2020_tcm1089-441100.pdf https://mn.gov/doc/assets/Adult%20Prison%20Population%20Summ...
    - iguy 6y ago
      Source is [1], 45k / 1290k for drug possession (and nothing harder), plus 145k for other drug charges (which I guess is closer to 11% not 10% as I said). Minnesota's 17% isn't that far off the national number it seems. They don't give a breakdown for simple possession. Violent crimes at 55% are again a majority. [1] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html
- hnracer 6y ago
  What percentage of those drug offenses are usage vs distribution?
alex_young 6y ago
There are nearly half a million people incarcerated in the US for nonviolent drug offenses [0]. Do you think we all agree that these are extreme crimes? [0] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html
content_sesh 6y ago
I'm having a hard time finding data for the state in question (California), but at a federal level this is very much not true. BOP stats show 46% of inmates are in for drug offenses, and 5% are in for property crime[1] [1] https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offen...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

VBprogrammer 6y ago

Isn't a huge amount of prison time in the US handed out for selling banned substances to other consenting adults?

nickff 6y ago
Drug convictions make up a large portion of federal inmates, but federal inmates are a minority of the prison population.
minikites 6y ago
Yep. Drug laws (and the police/legal system in general) also disproportionately targets people of color.
iguy 6y ago
About 10-20% of prisoners are in for nothing more serious than drugs, and if you try to exclude trafficking, then it's closer to the 10% end. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html
CobrastanJorji 6y ago
In total, about a half million people are in jail or prison for having, using, or selling drugs. Drug crimes account for about half of Federal prisoners. But percentage-wise, when you add up federal, state, and local prisons and jails, drugs are not as large a percentage as you'd think. Another half million people in prisons or jails haven't been convicted of any crime at all, either because they can't afford bail or because they're just being processed today. If you had to guess what someone went to jail for, and you only knew they were in a State penitentiary, violent crime would be your best guess. Here's a bit pie chart: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html
- staticassertion 6y ago
  This is people in prison, not people sent to prison. Given that violent crimes have longer sentences, wouldn't that skew the existing count in prison considerably towards violent offenders, even if many more people are sent to prison for other offenses? Further, because there would be shorter sentences, you're far more likely to encounter a candidate with a lesser sentence.
- joncrane 6y ago
  What's not captured here is that drugs are a contributing factor to many of the crimes committed. An old and rather tired example is the junky stealing to get his next fix. The crime is robbery, but the cause is drugs. I would argue (having been in jail myself multiple times, and, by the way, thanks to a lot of factors, now very happily and gainfully employed) that drugs are at the very least a co-factor on the vast majority of crimes in the USA.
  - vkou 6y ago
    I think most people understand this. What I'd like to see is the junkie to just get drugs from the government. It's cheaper for society to pay for a $20 fix (That costs $2 to produce), then for $500 dollars in property damage, a stolen $200 item that gets fenced for $20, a cop to show up to do a police report, and then, months down the road, an arrest, prison time, etc, etc.
    - CobrastanJorji 6y ago
      Same thing with prisoners and rehabilitation. Letting prisoners attend colleges for free is a remarkably good government investment. The same thing is true about the homeless. Homeless services are expensive. It's cheaper to get them apartments, even if you still offer them all of the support services you were offering before. But whenever you propose these things, social conservatives seem to come out of the woodwork and argue that it's not fair for prisoners or homeless people to get expensive stuff for free. Why should you get something good for doing a bad thing? Why should the homeless guy get an apartment that you'd paying $1000 a month for? Why should your taxes be buying drugs for that junkie? Even if you have to spend more taxes by not giving them these things, your sense of justice demands it be so.

Jtsummers 6y ago

> You say this, but most prison time is done for extreme crime that everyone agrees with. In addition this, prison time is usually reserved for not just crimes we agree with but crimes we all agree are extreme. If only that were accurate. Prison time in the US is not given out in proportion to the seriousness of the crime, and the amount of prison time is highly variable depending on locale, race of offender, race of victim, and many other factors.

heyoni 6y ago
The two are not mutually exclusive. You can have a majority of serious offenders in your prison population that also happen to be from certain locales/race/etc...

sebmellen 6y ago

I would hope that all agree a violent crime is worse than a racist tweet. However, there is a sentiment of sympathy afforded to murderers (that they're somehow deserving of rehabilitation) which is not always extended to those who have tweeted racist things. Perhaps this comes because a murder can be seen as a sad result of circumstances. Perhaps the criminal only had to murder because they had a bad upbringing and needed the cash and it was a horrible mistake. On the other hand, people perceived as racist are permanently marked as being ideologically dangerous. Mainly, I think this comes because racist tweeters can be seen as more directly responsible for their actions than a murderer. Of course, this line of reasoning is nonsense, but it appears to be quite common. Jon Ronson has a great TED talk about this, titled "How one tweet can ruin your life": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIP6fI0NAI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIP6fI0NAI. I would recommend that the grandparent post watch this.

staticassertion 6y ago
I'm perfectly willing to: a) Understand violent criminals have made amends and are rehabilitated b) Believe that people who were once racist are no longer racist Both issues are, to me, a 'sad result of circumstances'. So all of that seems fine.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  As am I. The point I was trying to make was that there isn't really a "path to rehabilitation" for people who have made very minor missteps online. In the case of the linked TED talk, the persecuted woman made a mistake, and was not a "career-racist". I think even accusing her of racism is a distortion of the word — she made a bad joke in bad taste. Meanwhile, there is an established, albeit broken path to rehabilitation for ex-convicts. There is also a certain faction of the left which seems to be more willing to accept prison reform than "tweet-reform". I think it should be far more easy to rehabilitate oneself from a bad tweet than a murder, and that they are entirely different classes of offences.
  - staticassertion 6y ago

rdimartino 6y ago

I'm not sure your statements about prison time are accurate, at least in the US. According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, 46.2% of inmates are in for drug offenses[1] and there is definitely disagreement about whether that should be a crime, let alone an extreme crime. Additionally, 78.6% of inmates are serving sentences longer than 5 years[2], which by necessity means that a large portion of those are for drug offenses. [1] https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offen... [2] https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_sentences.jsp https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_sente...

iguy 6y ago
But only about 10% of prisoners are in Federal custody. Among those in state prisons, drug possession is about 3% of cases (about equal to DUI plus fraud cases). Other drug charges make up about 10%.
- qes 6y ago
  > in state prisons, drug possession is about 3% of cases You're going to need to source that unbelievably low number. In my state, drug crimes represent the second largest proportion of prison inmates - a bit fewer than criminal sexual conduct a bit more than homicide: https://mn.gov/doc/assets/Adult%20Prison%20Population%20Summary%207-1-2020_tcm1089-441100.pdf https://mn.gov/doc/assets/Adult%20Prison%20Population%20Summ...
  - iguy 6y ago
    Source is [1], 45k / 1290k for drug possession (and nothing harder), plus 145k for other drug charges (which I guess is closer to 11% not 10% as I said). Minnesota's 17% isn't that far off the national number it seems. They don't give a breakdown for simple possession. Violent crimes at 55% are again a majority. [1] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html
hnracer 6y ago
What percentage of those drug offenses are usage vs distribution?

alex_young 6y ago

There are nearly half a million people incarcerated in the US for nonviolent drug offenses [0]. Do you think we all agree that these are extreme crimes? [0] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html

content_sesh 6y ago

I'm having a hard time finding data for the state in question (California), but at a federal level this is very much not true. BOP stats show 46% of inmates are in for drug offenses, and 5% are in for property crime[1] [1] https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offen...

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]