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If you think the people around you haven't done terrible things over the last 13 years they haven't been caught for I've got some bad news for you about humanit

If you think the people around you haven't done terrible things over the last 13 years they haven't been caught for I've got some bad news for you about humanity

thelean12 6y ago
13 years for a "serious, violent crime" could very well be referring to second degree murder in many states. No, I don't think my coworkers or friends have committed second degree murder. Context is of course key, but a blanket statement of "hiring someone who spent 13 years in prison for a serious, violent crime is a good thing" seems wild to me, which is the vibe on this thread.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  So it becomes either a law enforcement issue- does our system properly rehabilitate offenders? or a psychological issue- is someone who commits a violent crime inevitably going to repeat it?- or maybe a moral philosophy question- are people inherently evil and dangerous? Because you’re asking a safety/comfort question, but it’s dependent on the answers to the above.
  - thelean12 6y ago
    I think those questions are distracting to my very simple point: I don't want to work with a person who has murdered someone without a damn good reason (self-defense). I truly can't believe that HN thinks this is some offensive opinion.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      They're not distracting, because those underlying questions shape your reaction. Murder is considered one of the worst offenses in any society. But this person was already punished by society, and seen fit by the law to return to it. So what could explain your continue (and very understandable) discomfort? Is it because you believe that the penal system did not properly make this person safe to return to society? Is it because that once someone has committed such a terrible crime that they are inevitably going to be able to do so again, because they have the psychological profile to do it? Such a person is more likely to slip into violence? Finally, does it mean that such a person is forever marked as fundamentally dangerous and unworthy of reintegration? After the visceral recoil that is an instinct that preserves safety, you have to examine why you are so opposed to working with someone who has committed such a crime. Because we claim to live in a free society that gives people the liberty to pull themselves up from the bootstraps no matter their circumstances, yet discriminates against those who have done the time. Because we claim this society is built upon Christian and post-Christian Enlightenment principles, yet we reject the power of redemption and modern methods of recovery. It's fine to have such an opinion, but you have to justify it, because it's an example of how our society operates.
      - thelean12 6y ago
        > Is it because you believe that the penal system did not properly make this person safe to return to society? I absolutely don't believe the penal system makes people safe after they serve their time. > Is it because that once someone has committed such a terrible crime that they are inevitably going to be able to do so again, because they have the psychological profile to do it? If a person killed someone without a damn good reason, why would I think they wouldn't do it again? > Finally, does it mean that such a person is forever marked as fundamentally dangerous and unworthy of reintegration? Correct. And maybe I'm caught up on the murder aspect. Murder isn't a small little crime. It takes a certain type of person to be able to intentionally murder someone. And maybe most of this thread can be summarized by: I think if you intentionally murder someone without a damn good reason you should spend life in prison. Right now, second degree murder can include that and often is not life in prison.
        Apocryphon 6y ago
        Thank you for giving your honest answers. It's good to examine one's beliefs. > I absolutely don't believe the penal system makes people safe after they serve their time. Fair, and understandable. > If a person killed someone without a damn good reason, why would I think they wouldn't do it again? Why would you think they would do it again? Given that someone spent over a decade in prison, shouldn't it have deterred them from killing again? You'd have to actually look into recidivism rates to see how this works out in reality, unless you believe that for psychological and moral philosophical reasons that such a person who's committed murder is both willing and likely to do so again. > I think if you intentionally murder someone without a damn good reason you should spend life in prison. Right now, second degree murder can include that and often is not life in prison. Okay, so your personal standard is that murder does not have to be premeditated to deserve life in prison. That's fair. But I think that goes beyond discomfort with working with such a person who has been through the prison system; that's believing that such a person shouldn't be out of the prison system at all.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - patmcc 6y ago
      So what should happen to that person, exactly? Should they be in prison forever? Should they be released but not allowed to work? Should they only be allowed to work by themselves? I understand your reluctance, but the alternatives to "let the released felon work" are not great.
      - bhawks 6y ago
        Actions have consequences and after breaking major societal taboos like murder or rape it is very difficult or impossible to repair the damage a person has done to society. I have trouble judging people negatively if they don't want to associate with a person who has murdered or raped someone.
        vkou 6y ago
        You're not answering the question that was asked. Are you going to keep them in prison forever? Are you going to let them out, to be jobless?
        bhawks 6y ago
        It seems like you are viewing prison sentences as a 'price' for commiting murder, rape or some other violent crime. As long as you pay the price society must welcome you back with open arms. People will choose who to associate with based on their past behaviors and if you commit violent crime it is likely that most people will no longer want to associate with you.
        patmcc 6y ago
        I have the same visceral reaction - if I was seated next to a murderer at work I'd probably be wary. But visceral reactions tend not to make good social policy, and that's really my concern. We have some number of people who commit violent crimes. We either have to imprison them forever or let them out sometime. If we let them out we either need to support them or allow them to work. If we allow them to work do we relegate them to some low class of work, or allow them into white collar/privileged professions? We should be concerned about creating the best society for everyone. That means sometimes we need to suppress our immediate/unconscious reactions.
yroc92 6y ago
So by that logic, you’d be as comfortable being entirely surrounded by former violent criminals at your work as you would be seated exclusively by citizens with spotless records?

If you think the people around you haven't done terrible things over the last 13 years they haven't been caught for I've got some bad news for you about humanity

thelean12 6y ago

13 years for a "serious, violent crime" could very well be referring to second degree murder in many states. No, I don't think my coworkers or friends have committed second degree murder. Context is of course key, but a blanket statement of "hiring someone who spent 13 years in prison for a serious, violent crime is a good thing" seems wild to me, which is the vibe on this thread.

Apocryphon 6y ago
So it becomes either a law enforcement issue- does our system properly rehabilitate offenders? or a psychological issue- is someone who commits a violent crime inevitably going to repeat it?- or maybe a moral philosophy question- are people inherently evil and dangerous? Because you’re asking a safety/comfort question, but it’s dependent on the answers to the above.
- thelean12 6y ago
  I think those questions are distracting to my very simple point: I don't want to work with a person who has murdered someone without a damn good reason (self-defense). I truly can't believe that HN thinks this is some offensive opinion.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    They're not distracting, because those underlying questions shape your reaction. Murder is considered one of the worst offenses in any society. But this person was already punished by society, and seen fit by the law to return to it. So what could explain your continue (and very understandable) discomfort? Is it because you believe that the penal system did not properly make this person safe to return to society? Is it because that once someone has committed such a terrible crime that they are inevitably going to be able to do so again, because they have the psychological profile to do it? Such a person is more likely to slip into violence? Finally, does it mean that such a person is forever marked as fundamentally dangerous and unworthy of reintegration? After the visceral recoil that is an instinct that preserves safety, you have to examine why you are so opposed to working with someone who has committed such a crime. Because we claim to live in a free society that gives people the liberty to pull themselves up from the bootstraps no matter their circumstances, yet discriminates against those who have done the time. Because we claim this society is built upon Christian and post-Christian Enlightenment principles, yet we reject the power of redemption and modern methods of recovery. It's fine to have such an opinion, but you have to justify it, because it's an example of how our society operates.
    - thelean12 6y ago
      > Is it because you believe that the penal system did not properly make this person safe to return to society? I absolutely don't believe the penal system makes people safe after they serve their time. > Is it because that once someone has committed such a terrible crime that they are inevitably going to be able to do so again, because they have the psychological profile to do it? If a person killed someone without a damn good reason, why would I think they wouldn't do it again? > Finally, does it mean that such a person is forever marked as fundamentally dangerous and unworthy of reintegration? Correct. And maybe I'm caught up on the murder aspect. Murder isn't a small little crime. It takes a certain type of person to be able to intentionally murder someone. And maybe most of this thread can be summarized by: I think if you intentionally murder someone without a damn good reason you should spend life in prison. Right now, second degree murder can include that and often is not life in prison.
      - Apocryphon 6y ago
        Thank you for giving your honest answers. It's good to examine one's beliefs. > I absolutely don't believe the penal system makes people safe after they serve their time. Fair, and understandable. > If a person killed someone without a damn good reason, why would I think they wouldn't do it again? Why would you think they would do it again? Given that someone spent over a decade in prison, shouldn't it have deterred them from killing again? You'd have to actually look into recidivism rates to see how this works out in reality, unless you believe that for psychological and moral philosophical reasons that such a person who's committed murder is both willing and likely to do so again. > I think if you intentionally murder someone without a damn good reason you should spend life in prison. Right now, second degree murder can include that and often is not life in prison. Okay, so your personal standard is that murder does not have to be premeditated to deserve life in prison. That's fair. But I think that goes beyond discomfort with working with such a person who has been through the prison system; that's believing that such a person shouldn't be out of the prison system at all.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - patmcc 6y ago
    So what should happen to that person, exactly? Should they be in prison forever? Should they be released but not allowed to work? Should they only be allowed to work by themselves? I understand your reluctance, but the alternatives to "let the released felon work" are not great.
    - bhawks 6y ago
      Actions have consequences and after breaking major societal taboos like murder or rape it is very difficult or impossible to repair the damage a person has done to society. I have trouble judging people negatively if they don't want to associate with a person who has murdered or raped someone.
      - vkou 6y ago
        You're not answering the question that was asked. Are you going to keep them in prison forever? Are you going to let them out, to be jobless?
        bhawks 6y ago
        It seems like you are viewing prison sentences as a 'price' for commiting murder, rape or some other violent crime. As long as you pay the price society must welcome you back with open arms. People will choose who to associate with based on their past behaviors and if you commit violent crime it is likely that most people will no longer want to associate with you.
      - patmcc 6y ago
        I have the same visceral reaction - if I was seated next to a murderer at work I'd probably be wary. But visceral reactions tend not to make good social policy, and that's really my concern. We have some number of people who commit violent crimes. We either have to imprison them forever or let them out sometime. If we let them out we either need to support them or allow them to work. If we allow them to work do we relegate them to some low class of work, or allow them into white collar/privileged professions? We should be concerned about creating the best society for everyone. That means sometimes we need to suppress our immediate/unconscious reactions.

yroc92 6y ago

So by that logic, you’d be as comfortable being entirely surrounded by former violent criminals at your work as you would be seated exclusively by citizens with spotless records?