5 ms·

Music notation is actually terrible, even musicians agree to that. It clearly developed as a way to reason about music that already existed in the west at that

by screye 6y ago

Music notation is actually terrible, even musicians agree to that. It clearly developed as a way to reason about music that already existed in the west at that point, rather than be a principled way to go about understanding the underpinnings of music.

beagle3 6y ago
True (I hate it too). And like democracy, it's the worst idea (except every other system that has been tried). I've looked at many notations over the years, and each seems to get one thing exceptionally right at the expense of nearly everything else (and unusable for some cases), whereas standard sheet music is universally bad for all uses, but not bad enough to make it unusable for any common use -- at least as long as you stay within the 12-notes-per-octave world)
fortran77 6y ago
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But it's not keeping people from being musicans. Im 57, and have been playing the piano for 50 years. (I still practice 2 hours/day). The problem with piano isn't reading the music, it's getting your hands in the right place, at the right time, with the least amount of effort, to be able to control the keys the way you want to. Most of my practicing is getting from one place to another on the keyboard. I'm practicing the space "between" the notes (or positions on the keyboard; I start off by 'grouping' things). That's why I'm amused when I see "learn keyboard" systems that somehow make you believe the problem is simply seeing a C# two octaves above middle C on the staff and figuring out where it is on the keyboard. You can learn all that in a week. The rest takes years.
- Doctor_Fegg 6y ago
  > The problem with piano isn't reading the music Generally, but not always. I find the deep chromaticism of Messiaen or even Vierne (organ, not piano) very badly served by traditional musical notation - I have to stare at it for ages before it becomes apparent what I should be playing, whereas I can sight-read a typical SATB hymn.
- Silhouette 6y ago
  The problem with piano isn't reading the music, it's getting your hands in the right place, at the right time, with the least amount of effort, to be able to control the keys the way you want to. [...] That's why I'm amused when I see "learn keyboard" systems that somehow make you believe the problem is simply seeing a C# two octaves above middle C on the staff and figuring out where it is on the keyboard. You can learn all that in a week. I humbly submit that this is the perspective of someone who learned to read music 50 years ago and at an early age, and so who has, for most practical purposes, never not known how to read music. That perspective will not necessarily be shared by a beginner who has been learning to read music for a few weeks. Sure, you can learn what the lines mean in each clef, and then you can learn to recognise lines above and below the standard five, and then with time you even learn to recognise lines far above and below. You can learn which lines mean something different by default if you have sharps or flats in your key signature, and eventually you actually remember that natural sign just after the start of the current bar before you incorrectly play B-flat for the middle line of a treble clef because your key signature says so. Oh, and you're playing the piano, so you also have to do all of this for a major chord. And a minor chord. And chords with added sevenths. And chords with suspended seconds or fourths instead of thirds. And inversions that almost look like chords with suspended something but that actually have four notes at odd spacing. And then a further note on the octave to make sure all five digits get a workout. With a random double-flat in the middle. Which lasts a strange amount of time, because you're playing that chord as part of a quintuplet. With markings showing suggested dynamics over the whole phrase. I doubt anyone learns to read all of that fluently in a week, or a month, or even a year unless they are playing far more than any normal beginner. Yes, you can learn the main lines on a stave in a week, but the other 99% of reading music also takes years for most students. This isn't to say that getting your hand to the right position efficiently and then playing with the action you want doesn't matter; of course it does. I'm just arguing that reading "the right position" from realistic, non-beginner scores is itself a significant challenge for most players, often for many years.
Reelin 6y ago
> Music notation is actually terrible, even musicians agree to that. Terrible for what? My understanding is that it is quite good at accomplishing its intended purpose (ie transcribing western music in a dense manner that can be rapidly understood by a professional with only a glance). I don't know much about music theory myself but the topic of alternative "improved" musical notations came up on HN regarding a music related Show HN that made the front page. Frustratingly I can't seem to dig it up right now. In that discussion many points were made regarding a number of tasks including simultaneously sight reading rhythms and chords, on the fly transposition (I think this was somehow related to symmetry?), and notational density.

by screye 6y ago

beagle3 6y ago

True (I hate it too). And like democracy, it's the worst idea (except every other system that has been tried). I've looked at many notations over the years, and each seems to get one thing exceptionally right at the expense of nearly everything else (and unusable for some cases), whereas standard sheet music is universally bad for all uses, but not bad enough to make it unusable for any common use -- at least as long as you stay within the 12-notes-per-octave world)

fortran77 6y ago

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But it's not keeping people from being musicans. Im 57, and have been playing the piano for 50 years. (I still practice 2 hours/day). The problem with piano isn't reading the music, it's getting your hands in the right place, at the right time, with the least amount of effort, to be able to control the keys the way you want to. Most of my practicing is getting from one place to another on the keyboard. I'm practicing the space "between" the notes (or positions on the keyboard; I start off by 'grouping' things). That's why I'm amused when I see "learn keyboard" systems that somehow make you believe the problem is simply seeing a C# two octaves above middle C on the staff and figuring out where it is on the keyboard. You can learn all that in a week. The rest takes years.

Doctor_Fegg 6y ago
> The problem with piano isn't reading the music Generally, but not always. I find the deep chromaticism of Messiaen or even Vierne (organ, not piano) very badly served by traditional musical notation - I have to stare at it for ages before it becomes apparent what I should be playing, whereas I can sight-read a typical SATB hymn.
Silhouette 6y ago
The problem with piano isn't reading the music, it's getting your hands in the right place, at the right time, with the least amount of effort, to be able to control the keys the way you want to. [...] That's why I'm amused when I see "learn keyboard" systems that somehow make you believe the problem is simply seeing a C# two octaves above middle C on the staff and figuring out where it is on the keyboard. You can learn all that in a week. I humbly submit that this is the perspective of someone who learned to read music 50 years ago and at an early age, and so who has, for most practical purposes, never not known how to read music. That perspective will not necessarily be shared by a beginner who has been learning to read music for a few weeks. Sure, you can learn what the lines mean in each clef, and then you can learn to recognise lines above and below the standard five, and then with time you even learn to recognise lines far above and below. You can learn which lines mean something different by default if you have sharps or flats in your key signature, and eventually you actually remember that natural sign just after the start of the current bar before you incorrectly play B-flat for the middle line of a treble clef because your key signature says so. Oh, and you're playing the piano, so you also have to do all of this for a major chord. And a minor chord. And chords with added sevenths. And chords with suspended seconds or fourths instead of thirds. And inversions that almost look like chords with suspended something but that actually have four notes at odd spacing. And then a further note on the octave to make sure all five digits get a workout. With a random double-flat in the middle. Which lasts a strange amount of time, because you're playing that chord as part of a quintuplet. With markings showing suggested dynamics over the whole phrase. I doubt anyone learns to read all of that fluently in a week, or a month, or even a year unless they are playing far more than any normal beginner. Yes, you can learn the main lines on a stave in a week, but the other 99% of reading music also takes years for most students. This isn't to say that getting your hand to the right position efficiently and then playing with the action you want doesn't matter; of course it does. I'm just arguing that reading "the right position" from realistic, non-beginner scores is itself a significant challenge for most players, often for many years.

Reelin 6y ago

> Music notation is actually terrible, even musicians agree to that. Terrible for what? My understanding is that it is quite good at accomplishing its intended purpose (ie transcribing western music in a dense manner that can be rapidly understood by a professional with only a glance). I don't know much about music theory myself but the topic of alternative "improved" musical notations came up on HN regarding a music related Show HN that made the front page. Frustratingly I can't seem to dig it up right now. In that discussion many points were made regarding a number of tasks including simultaneously sight reading rhythms and chords, on the fly transposition (I think this was somehow related to symmetry?), and notational density.