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> Anyone remember all the different ways music was represented as they grew up? What about guitar tabs? I remember simplified math as a kid. I don't remember d

> Anyone remember all the different ways music was represented as they grew up? What about guitar tabs? I remember simplified math as a kid. I don't remember different notations for math and music as a kid... Music was always sheet music, even when I learned classical guiter; Chord names were "procedures", at times spelled out, and sometimes only referenced. Guitar tabs exist, but were only for people who wanted to play without taking the time to actually learn the craft (at least when I was growing up) EDIT: This was the attitude of every teacher around me growing up, not mine. As for math - other than having variables written down as empty squares, circles, triangles and stars which were later replaced by letters, I think the first real simplification of math notation that I met was Einstein summation; Everything else was just building on previous things, sometimes with new concepts (like complex numbers) and sometimes as shortcuts (limits and infinites). But they were all shorter than what they replaced, and compatible. > I think this hits on the right approach, which already exists: different languages with different complexity levels for notation. There was a guy who proposed something along the article's lines in 1958, which went even farther - instead of "single word descriptions", he chose a single symbol graphical description, because -- though ignored by the author of this article -- most of the world does not have English as their first language. I like the result of that 1958 suggestion a lot; most people place a SEP field over it. The guy is called Kenneth Iverson and the language is called APL with modern descendants J and K.

matthewmacleod 6y ago
Guitar tabs exist, but were only for people who wanted to play without taking the time to actually learn the craft This attitude really rubs me the wrong way. Tablature is absolutely ancient. It's been around for hundreds of years, and this glib dismissal is just the absolutely epitome of an elitist mindset.
- beagle3 6y ago
  I just added an edit: I wrote this, but this wasn't my mindset -- that was the mindset of every teacher and adult around me growing up, including those who couldn't read sheet music and used tablature to play. (Yes, I did grow up in a culture highly inspired by older/east european ideals, where kids were welcome to do whatever they want such as learn the guitar, after they've finished their homework, practiced their piano lessons. And as long they're on a path that -- if kept -- would lead them to be on a professional level) I played classical guitar for a few years, but stopped because I just wanted to play popular music, and there were no teachers around who actually taught that who were accomplished enough to be considered worth the money by my parents (who had a very limited budget).
- andrewzah 6y ago
  The fact that tablature is ancient doesn't mean it's great for "learning the craft" (in other words, understanding music theory). The age of a notation system is completely irrelevant when deciding what notation system to use, really. Tablature (for guitar/bass guitar, anyway) reduces note and rhythm information to merely a fret# on a string. This is perfectly fine for people who just want to play a song. I look at tabs sometimes for a quick reference since it's just mentally easier than sheet music. But if you want to start understanding the theory and relationships between those notes and chords to any meaningful degree, you really do need to start using sheet music. "Fret #3 on the E string to Fret #3 on the A string" doesn't communicate information like "G -> C" does (like the key center, the tonic, etc). It also doesn't limit you to any specific section of the fretboard. Sheet music is really not that hard to learn. If you want to just use tabs, go ahead, but it's not elitist to point out that sheet music is basically essential for progression as a musician. Music theory is a fundamental part of that progression, unless you just want to play tablature (or sheet music) robotically.
Izkata 6y ago
Another math example: 1) First learning multiplication with an "x", as in "4 x 3 = 12". 2) Then in algebra switching to " * " (dot) to avoid ambiguity with x-as-a-variable. 3) Later learning that " * " wasn't multiplication but actually dot product - it just happened to do the same thing with two scalars.
- beagle3 6y ago
  Weird. 1) When I grew up, multiplication and the letter X were styled very differently in books so that that was never ever a confusion. 2) The switch to dot, was NOT to avoid ambiguity, but to shorten stuff (IIRC we did that when we learned order of operations and started solving simple equations - writing "4 (dot) a" instaed of "4 (cross) a" -- and then just "4a" but multiplications still appear often among parentheses - they were not ALL replaced with dot. 3) That's simply wrong. It is a different operation; dot product reduces to multiplication among scalars -- but so does cross product. It's okay to denote scalar product with either. Granted, this might be dependent on the exact curriculum one studies through - but mine did NOT have a simplified one that was replaced - instead, it started with the most explicit one, and got simplified (with new, compatible notation that did not replace older one, only extended it) through the years. And it seems this was almost the case for you too.
  - Izkata 6y ago
    On 1, we used typed-up worksheets that didn't have different styling. And even then, on occasion we had to write the "x" as part of an answer, or the teacher on the blackboard while teaching, which was more what I was thinking of anyway. On 3, I think you misunderstood my point - in 2, we learned dot (the symbol) is multiplication, never touching on dot product because that was a good year or two later, then at that point were corrected to it not being what we first learned.
    - Waterluvian 6y ago
      TIL dot is dot product. I just thought it’s another syntax for multiplication. That’s a pretty good example.

matthewmacleod 6y ago

Guitar tabs exist, but were only for people who wanted to play without taking the time to actually learn the craft This attitude really rubs me the wrong way. Tablature is absolutely ancient. It's been around for hundreds of years, and this glib dismissal is just the absolutely epitome of an elitist mindset.

beagle3 6y ago
I just added an edit: I wrote this, but this wasn't my mindset -- that was the mindset of every teacher and adult around me growing up, including those who couldn't read sheet music and used tablature to play. (Yes, I did grow up in a culture highly inspired by older/east european ideals, where kids were welcome to do whatever they want such as learn the guitar, after they've finished their homework, practiced their piano lessons. And as long they're on a path that -- if kept -- would lead them to be on a professional level) I played classical guitar for a few years, but stopped because I just wanted to play popular music, and there were no teachers around who actually taught that who were accomplished enough to be considered worth the money by my parents (who had a very limited budget).
andrewzah 6y ago
The fact that tablature is ancient doesn't mean it's great for "learning the craft" (in other words, understanding music theory). The age of a notation system is completely irrelevant when deciding what notation system to use, really. Tablature (for guitar/bass guitar, anyway) reduces note and rhythm information to merely a fret# on a string. This is perfectly fine for people who just want to play a song. I look at tabs sometimes for a quick reference since it's just mentally easier than sheet music. But if you want to start understanding the theory and relationships between those notes and chords to any meaningful degree, you really do need to start using sheet music. "Fret #3 on the E string to Fret #3 on the A string" doesn't communicate information like "G -> C" does (like the key center, the tonic, etc). It also doesn't limit you to any specific section of the fretboard. Sheet music is really not that hard to learn. If you want to just use tabs, go ahead, but it's not elitist to point out that sheet music is basically essential for progression as a musician. Music theory is a fundamental part of that progression, unless you just want to play tablature (or sheet music) robotically.

Izkata 6y ago

Another math example: 1) First learning multiplication with an "x", as in "4 x 3 = 12". 2) Then in algebra switching to " * " (dot) to avoid ambiguity with x-as-a-variable. 3) Later learning that " * " wasn't multiplication but actually dot product - it just happened to do the same thing with two scalars.

beagle3 6y ago
Weird. 1) When I grew up, multiplication and the letter X were styled very differently in books so that that was never ever a confusion. 2) The switch to dot, was NOT to avoid ambiguity, but to shorten stuff (IIRC we did that when we learned order of operations and started solving simple equations - writing "4 (dot) a" instaed of "4 (cross) a" -- and then just "4a" but multiplications still appear often among parentheses - they were not ALL replaced with dot. 3) That's simply wrong. It is a different operation; dot product reduces to multiplication among scalars -- but so does cross product. It's okay to denote scalar product with either. Granted, this might be dependent on the exact curriculum one studies through - but mine did NOT have a simplified one that was replaced - instead, it started with the most explicit one, and got simplified (with new, compatible notation that did not replace older one, only extended it) through the years. And it seems this was almost the case for you too.
- Izkata 6y ago
  On 1, we used typed-up worksheets that didn't have different styling. And even then, on occasion we had to write the "x" as part of an answer, or the teacher on the blackboard while teaching, which was more what I was thinking of anyway. On 3, I think you misunderstood my point - in 2, we learned dot (the symbol) is multiplication, never touching on dot product because that was a good year or two later, then at that point were corrected to it not being what we first learned.
  - Waterluvian 6y ago
    TIL dot is dot product. I just thought it’s another syntax for multiplication. That’s a pretty good example.