4 ms·

There was an interesting issue with the voucher system- most specifically, in areas with the voucher system, private schools are not held to the same standards

There was an interesting issue with the voucher system- most specifically, in areas with the voucher system, private schools are not held to the same standards as public schools. Ie. They are not tested the same for quality and they are not expected to have the same programs for special needs children.

pibechorro 6y ago
Private and home schooled kids consistently outperform public schools by a GIANT margin. The quality of education, by say a Montessori school, compared to public is drastically different; from building self esteem, independence, critical thinking, creativity, socialization, etc. Public schools, are derived from the Prussian system, its optimized to create obedient workers, its the lowest common denominator in education. Arguements of equality in public schools are out the window too when you compare the funding and quality between poor counties and wealthy ones. Its especially unjust that parents paying for private education pay twice, for public and private.
- bigfudge 6y ago
  First, there is a massive selection effect going on here (motivated parents). Second, let's see what happens if we fund private and public schools equivalently. Class sizes of 10 don't happen by accident. Paying for private education "twice" is just part of rich people paying for the society that enabled them to become and stay rich.
  - dpratt71 6y ago
    It's really too bad that the only way we can be sure rich folk pay their fair share is to charge them twice for private education. Otherwise, my mother may not have felt it necessary to work the overnight shift at the local factory for decades in order to provide us with the basic necessities and a private school education.
  - primrose 6y ago
    Motivated Parents is everything. Focus your programs on that instead? "Second, let's see what happens if we fund private and public schools equivalently." Detroit get's $14k per student. Cost of living in Detroit is low and barely anyone who graduates is literate. I don't think funding's the problem.
pnutjam 6y ago
Cherry picking data can certainly show that private and home schooled kids do better on tests. It's easy to self select and paint a great picture. US Public schools blow everyone else out of the water if you shave off the bottom 10%. The US problem with schooling is more and more a problem of equity. People need to understand that helping other kids isn't going to hurt their kids. US taxpayers would rather throw money at prisons and police instead of education and social workers. I don't mean schools when I say education, I mean outreach to families and help getting them what they need.
- primrose 6y ago
  "US Public schools blow everyone else out of the water if you shave off the bottom 10%." Who is "everyone else?" "US taxpayers would rather throw money at prisons and police instead of education and social workers." Agreed. End the war on drugs and personal freedom. End the wars, bring every troop home, from everywhere. Cut the military budget. "I mean outreach to families and help getting them what they need." In 2019, we spend $90,960 per family of 4 on welfare. The money's there. Unaccountable bureaucracies waste money. This will never change.
  - pnutjam 6y ago
    A little dated, but here is a good citation. https://inequality.org/research/america-failing-schools/ https://inequality.org/research/america-failing-schools/ Where is yours for that $90k BS. Sounds like a serious argument for just giving poor people cash.
    - primrose 6y ago
      "US Public schools blow everyone else out of the water if you shave off the bottom 10%." Again, I don't know who you're referring to by "everyone else." "Where is yours for that $90k BS." Enjoy! Federal Breakdown 2019 in Billions: $59: EITC Refundable Tax Credits - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/020-0906 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/020-0906 $29: Child Tax Credit - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/020-0922 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/020-0922 $64: SNAP (Supplemental Nutrition Programs) - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/012-3505 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/012-3505 $51: Housing Assistance - https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/CFO/documents/3%20-%20FY19CJ%20-%20Dept.%20Summary%20-%20Budget%20Outlays%20-%20Updated.pdf https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/CFO/documents/3%20-%20FY19C... $57: SSI (Disabled, blind or senior citizens) - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/028-0406 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/028-0406 $31: Pell Grants - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/091-0200 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/091-0200 $16: Temporary Assistance for Needy Families - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/075-1552 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/075-1552 $23: Child Nutrition - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/012-3539 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/012-3539 $12: Head Start - https://www.acf.hhs.gov/about/budget https://www.acf.hhs.gov/about/budget $5: Job Training - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/016-0174 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/016-0174 , https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/016-0181 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/016-0181 $5: WIC (Women, Infants, and Children) - https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/wic-program/ https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/wi... $5: Child Care - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/075-1550 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/075-1550 , https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/075-1534 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/075-1534 , $4: LIHEAP (Utility bill help) - https://liheapch.acf.hhs.gov/Funding/funding.htm https://liheapch.acf.hhs.gov/Funding/funding.htm $1: Lifeline (phone payment help) - https://www.usac.org/wp-content/uploads/about/documents/annual-reports/2019/USAC-2019-Annual-Report.pdf https://www.usac.org/wp-content/uploads/about/documents/annu... Page 8 $409: Medicade - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/075-0512 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/075-0512 Total: $771 billion People below the poverty line in 2019: 33.9 million - https://www.statista.com/statistics/233138/number-of-people-living-below-the-poverty-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/233138/number-of-people-... $771 billion / 33.9 million below poverty citizens = $22,743 $22,743 * Family of 4 = $90,972 THIS IS JUST FEDERAL SPENDING AND DOES NOT INCLUDE STATE AND LOCAL SPENDING!
johnminter 6y ago
We live in western New York. My wife teaches in a private school and my daughter teaches in a charter school. The New York State Department of Education provides standards and direct support for high functioning special needs students and transportation to/from special classes for those with greater needs. The students in these two schools take the same standardized tests as those in the public schools. My wife teaches college level classes in Physics and Calculus to high school students with oversight from a local community college. This is a great deal for the students because they enter the college of their choice with a better background than a typical student.
- TeaDrunk 6y ago
  Yes, like I said, private schools are not held to the same standards. They get to use public services like support for high functioning special needs students while claiming more profit off those programs. Additionally they get to pick and choose people who attend these schools- I noticed you only specified "high functioning" for those schools. A public school doesn't get to choose between "high functioning" special needs students and "low functioning" ones.
  - primrose 6y ago
    Perhaps an increased voucher for special needs students is in order. Society is disadvantaged when intelligent students aren't allowed to achieve their fullest potential. We need programs that allow students to independently work at their own pace. We'd have a ton more 15-16 year old's attending college.
    - TeaDrunk 6y ago
      This still doesn't allay the issue that private and charter schools have the ability to simply decline to take up students that are more difficult for them to teach.
primrose 6y ago
Increasing the voucher for special needs students?

pibechorro 6y ago

Private and home schooled kids consistently outperform public schools by a GIANT margin. The quality of education, by say a Montessori school, compared to public is drastically different; from building self esteem, independence, critical thinking, creativity, socialization, etc. Public schools, are derived from the Prussian system, its optimized to create obedient workers, its the lowest common denominator in education. Arguements of equality in public schools are out the window too when you compare the funding and quality between poor counties and wealthy ones. Its especially unjust that parents paying for private education pay twice, for public and private.

bigfudge 6y ago
First, there is a massive selection effect going on here (motivated parents). Second, let's see what happens if we fund private and public schools equivalently. Class sizes of 10 don't happen by accident. Paying for private education "twice" is just part of rich people paying for the society that enabled them to become and stay rich.
- dpratt71 6y ago
  It's really too bad that the only way we can be sure rich folk pay their fair share is to charge them twice for private education. Otherwise, my mother may not have felt it necessary to work the overnight shift at the local factory for decades in order to provide us with the basic necessities and a private school education.
- primrose 6y ago
  Motivated Parents is everything. Focus your programs on that instead? "Second, let's see what happens if we fund private and public schools equivalently." Detroit get's $14k per student. Cost of living in Detroit is low and barely anyone who graduates is literate. I don't think funding's the problem.

pnutjam 6y ago

Cherry picking data can certainly show that private and home schooled kids do better on tests. It's easy to self select and paint a great picture. US Public schools blow everyone else out of the water if you shave off the bottom 10%. The US problem with schooling is more and more a problem of equity. People need to understand that helping other kids isn't going to hurt their kids. US taxpayers would rather throw money at prisons and police instead of education and social workers. I don't mean schools when I say education, I mean outreach to families and help getting them what they need.

primrose 6y ago
"US Public schools blow everyone else out of the water if you shave off the bottom 10%." Who is "everyone else?" "US taxpayers would rather throw money at prisons and police instead of education and social workers." Agreed. End the war on drugs and personal freedom. End the wars, bring every troop home, from everywhere. Cut the military budget. "I mean outreach to families and help getting them what they need." In 2019, we spend $90,960 per family of 4 on welfare. The money's there. Unaccountable bureaucracies waste money. This will never change.
- pnutjam 6y ago
  A little dated, but here is a good citation. https://inequality.org/research/america-failing-schools/ https://inequality.org/research/america-failing-schools/ Where is yours for that $90k BS. Sounds like a serious argument for just giving poor people cash.
  - primrose 6y ago
    "US Public schools blow everyone else out of the water if you shave off the bottom 10%." Again, I don't know who you're referring to by "everyone else." "Where is yours for that $90k BS." Enjoy! Federal Breakdown 2019 in Billions: $59: EITC Refundable Tax Credits - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/020-0906 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/020-0906 $29: Child Tax Credit - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/020-0922 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/020-0922 $64: SNAP (Supplemental Nutrition Programs) - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/012-3505 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/012-3505 $51: Housing Assistance - https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/CFO/documents/3%20-%20FY19CJ%20-%20Dept.%20Summary%20-%20Budget%20Outlays%20-%20Updated.pdf https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/CFO/documents/3%20-%20FY19C... $57: SSI (Disabled, blind or senior citizens) - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/028-0406 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/028-0406 $31: Pell Grants - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/091-0200 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/091-0200 $16: Temporary Assistance for Needy Families - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/075-1552 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/075-1552 $23: Child Nutrition - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/012-3539 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/012-3539 $12: Head Start - https://www.acf.hhs.gov/about/budget https://www.acf.hhs.gov/about/budget $5: Job Training - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/016-0174 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/016-0174 , https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/016-0181 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/016-0181 $5: WIC (Women, Infants, and Children) - https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/wic-program/ https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/wi... $5: Child Care - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/075-1550 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/075-1550 , https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/075-1534 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/075-1534 , $4: LIHEAP (Utility bill help) - https://liheapch.acf.hhs.gov/Funding/funding.htm https://liheapch.acf.hhs.gov/Funding/funding.htm $1: Lifeline (phone payment help) - https://www.usac.org/wp-content/uploads/about/documents/annual-reports/2019/USAC-2019-Annual-Report.pdf https://www.usac.org/wp-content/uploads/about/documents/annu... Page 8 $409: Medicade - https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/075-0512 https://www.usaspending.gov/federal_account/075-0512 Total: $771 billion People below the poverty line in 2019: 33.9 million - https://www.statista.com/statistics/233138/number-of-people-living-below-the-poverty-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/233138/number-of-people-... $771 billion / 33.9 million below poverty citizens = $22,743 $22,743 * Family of 4 = $90,972 THIS IS JUST FEDERAL SPENDING AND DOES NOT INCLUDE STATE AND LOCAL SPENDING!

johnminter 6y ago

We live in western New York. My wife teaches in a private school and my daughter teaches in a charter school. The New York State Department of Education provides standards and direct support for high functioning special needs students and transportation to/from special classes for those with greater needs. The students in these two schools take the same standardized tests as those in the public schools. My wife teaches college level classes in Physics and Calculus to high school students with oversight from a local community college. This is a great deal for the students because they enter the college of their choice with a better background than a typical student.

TeaDrunk 6y ago
Yes, like I said, private schools are not held to the same standards. They get to use public services like support for high functioning special needs students while claiming more profit off those programs. Additionally they get to pick and choose people who attend these schools- I noticed you only specified "high functioning" for those schools. A public school doesn't get to choose between "high functioning" special needs students and "low functioning" ones.
- primrose 6y ago
  Perhaps an increased voucher for special needs students is in order. Society is disadvantaged when intelligent students aren't allowed to achieve their fullest potential. We need programs that allow students to independently work at their own pace. We'd have a ton more 15-16 year old's attending college.
  - TeaDrunk 6y ago
    This still doesn't allay the issue that private and charter schools have the ability to simply decline to take up students that are more difficult for them to teach.

primrose 6y ago

Increasing the voucher for special needs students?