4 ms·

Manufacturing with JLC only takes a day or two. Delivery speed depends on which courier you choose. I’m in London and often get boards within a week via DHL, or

by foldr 6y ago

Manufacturing with JLC only takes a day or two. Delivery speed depends on which courier you choose. I’m in London and often get boards within a week via DHL, or 2 weeks with the cheaper shipping option. Breadboards are mostly useless these days because very few components of interest are through-hole and many circuits don’t work at all on breadboards (e.g. switching regulators). I’m a hobbyist and virtually never use breadboards. If you just want to play around with simple circuits then sure, use a breadboard. But you are really missing out if you don't take advantage of cheap PCB manufacturing and the enormous range of amazing SMD components. There’s nothing “special” about a hot air station. I paid £35 for mine and it works fine. It's easy to learn how to solder SMD components. Beginners will screw it up, but that's the whole point of being a beginner, right? Solder bridges are very easy to fix with flux. >and disregard the "special offer" garbage that only applies to your first order It doesn't only apply to your first order. I've ordered at the $2 price many times. In any case, there are many Chinese PCB fabs of approximately equivalent quality, and you can almost always find one that has a promotional rate of some kind.

rytis 6y ago
so 100x100mm pcb, 2 layers, x5, manufacturing costs - £1.56 12-16 business day delivery - £4.18 7-9 days - £9.25 4-6 dhl standard - £15.58 I think 30pcs protoboard for £9.90 with next day delivery from amazon still beats the custom made pcbs. And I don't need to spend time making sure my pcb design is 100% bug free... Again, speaking from the hobbyist point of view.
- foldr 6y ago
  I’m also speaking from the hobbyist point of view. There’s obviously nothing wrong with using protoboard if it works for you. Here’s why I don’t. First, virtually none of the components I want to use are available in DIP packages. E.g., there are many great, very cheap, ARM Cortex microcontrollers that just don’t come in DIP packages. Second, I have fewer problems with mistakes when I use PCBs. The EDA software checks that my board matches my schematic, so I only have to worry about errors in my schematic. And it’s not that difficult to make small corrections to a PCB with bodge wires if one or two connections are wrong. I’ve certainly made PCBs with errors, but I’ve never made one with so many errors that it was entirely unusable. Third, the end result is a nice, neat, durable PCB, rather than an ugly tangle of wires. And other people can easily make one using your gerbers. Fourth, you can use switching regulators and other layout-sensitive components. For these reasons, I’d encourage any hobbyist to take advantage of the incredible service provided by Chinese PCB fabs. You can do so much more with a custom PCB than you can with protoboard.
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
    To be fair - you're already in advanced stages, when you're looking into ARM MCUs. PIC10F is $0.55 at Mouser. You can make a programmer for it with an USB-RS232 cable and few other cheap components. That is what I call beginner cheap. Even assembler for it is dead simple.
    - foldr 6y ago
      Even for PIC and Atmel, you have much more choice if you're ok with QFN and TSOP packages. The ARM microcontrollers aren't actually so much harder to use than the Atmel ones. I remember thinking that it was going to be much harder the first time I tried it, but if you stick with one of the popular ranges (e.g. STM), then the dev tools are good and there's lots of help available online.
    - numpad0 6y ago
      Don’t you need 12V VPP/MCLR line for PIC?
      - JAlexoid 6y ago
        I don't remember. Unused them in automotive applications, so they might need them.
Nullabillity 6y ago
> Delivery speed depends on which courier you choose. I’m in London and often get boards within a week via DHL, or 2 weeks with the cheaper shipping option. So, even further from "dirt cheap". And it's still not even in the same ballpark as going down to the store. > If you just want to play around with simple circuits then sure, use a breadboard. And what do you think beginners are going to do? Of course there will usually come a time where you need a PCB for something, but the longer that can be delayed, the more likely that they'll actually get past the hurdle. > There’s nothing “special” about a hot air station. It's another thing to buy, another thing to need to store somewhere, and another skill to learn. I'm not saying it isn't valuable, but there is also value in a gradual learning curve. > It's easy to learn how to solder SMD components. Beginners will screw it up, but that's the whole point of being a beginner, right? See above. > It doesn't only apply to your first order. I've ordered at the $2 price many times. That hasn't been my experience.
- foldr 6y ago
  The $2 offers are time-limited. They have nothing to do with how many orders you've already made. I've made lots of orders with JLC and I can still sign into my account and get the $2 rate. You've also made orders with them, it seems. Are you saying that you don't get the $2 rate if you sign in? I think where we disagree is that you think that beginners should delay using PCBs, where as I think that the sooner they move to using PCBs the better. I certainly regret that I delayed doing this myself.
  - mNovak 6y ago
    100% agreed. I wasted a lot of time years ago making crappy homebrew perf-circuits, before just getting comfortable with KiCAD. Regarding the delay.. I find it's not so bad because I'm juggling a few projects, so I always have one on order, and tackle other things while I wait. It's not like your entire hobby career is going to end in a month. Regarding $2 JLC orders, my experience has been it's always available once per order, for a 2-layer <100mm x 100mm. Definitely have gotten that discount many times.
JAlexoid 6y ago
We're talking about casual beginners, which is not the same as beginner. I started my career in Lithuania, where a student will earn no more than a few hundred eur. JLC delivers a custom board for 7Eur within a MONTH! For 7eur I can get a perfboard, ATTiny2313 and a bunch of components and make a thing... in about 4 hours. I used to make CAN interface boards without SMD and with tools that cost me roughly 20Eur in total. Never needed a hot air station - so your claim that it's nothing special is complete delusion of reality. I couldn't even afford a breadboard... not to mention specialist MCU programmer.
- StavrosK 6y ago
  How do you use perfboards? I never managed to get the wires in the same holes as the component's leg, it was such a hassle that it was literally easier to make SMD PCBs with a 3D printer than to solder on a perfboard.
  - kps 6y ago
    You're telling the chap who couldn't afford a breadboard to use a 3D printer.
    - StavrosK 6y ago
      I'm telling the chap who couldn't afford a breadboard that I find soldering perfboard very hard.
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
    The wires go through the holes next to the pin, not into the same hole. There's a million tutorials and examples online. And you go the same route - cost and accessibility have nothing to do with "how easy". How would some beginner in a country with $300 average monthly income be able to 3d print stuff? Advocating for SMD only is exclusionary delusional elitism, until working with SMDs becomes completely financially trivial for the majority of the world's would be electronics engineers.
    - 6y ago

by foldr 6y ago

rytis 6y ago

so 100x100mm pcb, 2 layers, x5, manufacturing costs - £1.56 12-16 business day delivery - £4.18 7-9 days - £9.25 4-6 dhl standard - £15.58 I think 30pcs protoboard for £9.90 with next day delivery from amazon still beats the custom made pcbs. And I don't need to spend time making sure my pcb design is 100% bug free... Again, speaking from the hobbyist point of view.

foldr 6y ago
I’m also speaking from the hobbyist point of view. There’s obviously nothing wrong with using protoboard if it works for you. Here’s why I don’t. First, virtually none of the components I want to use are available in DIP packages. E.g., there are many great, very cheap, ARM Cortex microcontrollers that just don’t come in DIP packages. Second, I have fewer problems with mistakes when I use PCBs. The EDA software checks that my board matches my schematic, so I only have to worry about errors in my schematic. And it’s not that difficult to make small corrections to a PCB with bodge wires if one or two connections are wrong. I’ve certainly made PCBs with errors, but I’ve never made one with so many errors that it was entirely unusable. Third, the end result is a nice, neat, durable PCB, rather than an ugly tangle of wires. And other people can easily make one using your gerbers. Fourth, you can use switching regulators and other layout-sensitive components. For these reasons, I’d encourage any hobbyist to take advantage of the incredible service provided by Chinese PCB fabs. You can do so much more with a custom PCB than you can with protoboard.
- JAlexoid 6y ago
  To be fair - you're already in advanced stages, when you're looking into ARM MCUs. PIC10F is $0.55 at Mouser. You can make a programmer for it with an USB-RS232 cable and few other cheap components. That is what I call beginner cheap. Even assembler for it is dead simple.
  - foldr 6y ago
    Even for PIC and Atmel, you have much more choice if you're ok with QFN and TSOP packages. The ARM microcontrollers aren't actually so much harder to use than the Atmel ones. I remember thinking that it was going to be much harder the first time I tried it, but if you stick with one of the popular ranges (e.g. STM), then the dev tools are good and there's lots of help available online.
  - numpad0 6y ago
    Don’t you need 12V VPP/MCLR line for PIC?
    - JAlexoid 6y ago
      I don't remember. Unused them in automotive applications, so they might need them.

Nullabillity 6y ago

> Delivery speed depends on which courier you choose. I’m in London and often get boards within a week via DHL, or 2 weeks with the cheaper shipping option. So, even further from "dirt cheap". And it's still not even in the same ballpark as going down to the store. > If you just want to play around with simple circuits then sure, use a breadboard. And what do you think beginners are going to do? Of course there will usually come a time where you need a PCB for something, but the longer that can be delayed, the more likely that they'll actually get past the hurdle. > There’s nothing “special” about a hot air station. It's another thing to buy, another thing to need to store somewhere, and another skill to learn. I'm not saying it isn't valuable, but there is also value in a gradual learning curve. > It's easy to learn how to solder SMD components. Beginners will screw it up, but that's the whole point of being a beginner, right? See above. > It doesn't only apply to your first order. I've ordered at the $2 price many times. That hasn't been my experience.

foldr 6y ago
The $2 offers are time-limited. They have nothing to do with how many orders you've already made. I've made lots of orders with JLC and I can still sign into my account and get the $2 rate. You've also made orders with them, it seems. Are you saying that you don't get the $2 rate if you sign in? I think where we disagree is that you think that beginners should delay using PCBs, where as I think that the sooner they move to using PCBs the better. I certainly regret that I delayed doing this myself.
- mNovak 6y ago
  100% agreed. I wasted a lot of time years ago making crappy homebrew perf-circuits, before just getting comfortable with KiCAD. Regarding the delay.. I find it's not so bad because I'm juggling a few projects, so I always have one on order, and tackle other things while I wait. It's not like your entire hobby career is going to end in a month. Regarding $2 JLC orders, my experience has been it's always available once per order, for a 2-layer <100mm x 100mm. Definitely have gotten that discount many times.

JAlexoid 6y ago

We're talking about casual beginners, which is not the same as beginner. I started my career in Lithuania, where a student will earn no more than a few hundred eur. JLC delivers a custom board for 7Eur within a MONTH! For 7eur I can get a perfboard, ATTiny2313 and a bunch of components and make a thing... in about 4 hours. I used to make CAN interface boards without SMD and with tools that cost me roughly 20Eur in total. Never needed a hot air station - so your claim that it's nothing special is complete delusion of reality. I couldn't even afford a breadboard... not to mention specialist MCU programmer.

StavrosK 6y ago
How do you use perfboards? I never managed to get the wires in the same holes as the component's leg, it was such a hassle that it was literally easier to make SMD PCBs with a 3D printer than to solder on a perfboard.
- kps 6y ago
  You're telling the chap who couldn't afford a breadboard to use a 3D printer.
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    I'm telling the chap who couldn't afford a breadboard that I find soldering perfboard very hard.
- JAlexoid 6y ago
  The wires go through the holes next to the pin, not into the same hole. There's a million tutorials and examples online. And you go the same route - cost and accessibility have nothing to do with "how easy". How would some beginner in a country with $300 average monthly income be able to 3d print stuff? Advocating for SMD only is exclusionary delusional elitism, until working with SMDs becomes completely financially trivial for the majority of the world's would be electronics engineers.
  - 6y ago