5 ms·

A chinese 5x run of a two-layer PCB from JLC is $13 incl shipping to Sweden, and takes 3-4 weeks for mfg and delivery.[0] You can speed it up a bit by going wi

A chinese 5x run of a two-layer PCB from JLC is $13 incl shipping to Sweden, and takes 3-4 weeks for mfg and delivery.[0] You can speed it up a bit by going with a local mfg like Svensk Elektronikproduktion, who charges $154 but "only" takes ~2 weeks.[1] Or you can head down to Kjell&co, pick up a few breadboards for $10[2] or a perfboard for $8[3], and be home again in 20 minutes. Which do you think is more approachable for hobbyists? Oh, and you'll probably be able to pick up most through-hole components you want during the same trip, while SMD stuff usually needs to be ordered online. > You don't need any special tooling to solder SMD components, either. A temperature controlled soldering iron and a cheap hot air station are perfectly sufficient. I'd say a hot air station qualifies as special tooling. But disregarding that, while I can agree for passive components, even tiny SMD MCUs tend to have their legs packed close enough that solder bridges are practically inevitable for beginners. [0]: https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote, remember to add shipping and disregard the "special offer" garbage that only applies to your first order [1]: http://www.svenskelektronikproduktion.se/en/webshop/prototype-assembly.php http://www.svenskelektronikproduktion.se/en/webshop/prototyp..., remember to add shipping cost and add the 25% VAT [2]: https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/elektroniklabb/luxorparts-kopplingsdack-400-anslutningar-2-pack-p36283 https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/ele... [3]: https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/monsterkort/experimentkort/experimentkort-fr2-100x160-mm-banor-p89416 https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/mon...

foldr 6y ago
Manufacturing with JLC only takes a day or two. Delivery speed depends on which courier you choose. I’m in London and often get boards within a week via DHL, or 2 weeks with the cheaper shipping option. Breadboards are mostly useless these days because very few components of interest are through-hole and many circuits don’t work at all on breadboards (e.g. switching regulators). I’m a hobbyist and virtually never use breadboards. If you just want to play around with simple circuits then sure, use a breadboard. But you are really missing out if you don't take advantage of cheap PCB manufacturing and the enormous range of amazing SMD components. There’s nothing “special” about a hot air station. I paid £35 for mine and it works fine. It's easy to learn how to solder SMD components. Beginners will screw it up, but that's the whole point of being a beginner, right? Solder bridges are very easy to fix with flux. >and disregard the "special offer" garbage that only applies to your first order It doesn't only apply to your first order. I've ordered at the $2 price many times. In any case, there are many Chinese PCB fabs of approximately equivalent quality, and you can almost always find one that has a promotional rate of some kind.
- rytis 6y ago
  so 100x100mm pcb, 2 layers, x5, manufacturing costs - £1.56 12-16 business day delivery - £4.18 7-9 days - £9.25 4-6 dhl standard - £15.58 I think 30pcs protoboard for £9.90 with next day delivery from amazon still beats the custom made pcbs. And I don't need to spend time making sure my pcb design is 100% bug free... Again, speaking from the hobbyist point of view.
  - foldr 6y ago
    I’m also speaking from the hobbyist point of view. There’s obviously nothing wrong with using protoboard if it works for you. Here’s why I don’t. First, virtually none of the components I want to use are available in DIP packages. E.g., there are many great, very cheap, ARM Cortex microcontrollers that just don’t come in DIP packages. Second, I have fewer problems with mistakes when I use PCBs. The EDA software checks that my board matches my schematic, so I only have to worry about errors in my schematic. And it’s not that difficult to make small corrections to a PCB with bodge wires if one or two connections are wrong. I’ve certainly made PCBs with errors, but I’ve never made one with so many errors that it was entirely unusable. Third, the end result is a nice, neat, durable PCB, rather than an ugly tangle of wires. And other people can easily make one using your gerbers. Fourth, you can use switching regulators and other layout-sensitive components. For these reasons, I’d encourage any hobbyist to take advantage of the incredible service provided by Chinese PCB fabs. You can do so much more with a custom PCB than you can with protoboard.
    - JAlexoid 6y ago
      To be fair - you're already in advanced stages, when you're looking into ARM MCUs. PIC10F is $0.55 at Mouser. You can make a programmer for it with an USB-RS232 cable and few other cheap components. That is what I call beginner cheap. Even assembler for it is dead simple.
      - foldr 6y ago
        Even for PIC and Atmel, you have much more choice if you're ok with QFN and TSOP packages. The ARM microcontrollers aren't actually so much harder to use than the Atmel ones. I remember thinking that it was going to be much harder the first time I tried it, but if you stick with one of the popular ranges (e.g. STM), then the dev tools are good and there's lots of help available online.
mNovak 6y ago
>> you'll probably be able to pick up most through-hole components you want during the same trip Wait, you can buy discrete electronics components in a physical store?
- DanBC 6y ago
  Sure. Here's one in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, UK: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.9034553,-2.0801054,3a,41y,30.31h,84.84t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6JHb2WGHEjYhzs3Y1o83Qw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D6JHb2WGHEjYhzs3Y1o83Qw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D10.33875%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.9034553,-2.0801054,3a,41y,...
- Nullabillity 6y ago
  Kjell (my example from earlier) has physical stores throughout Sweden. Their offerings aren't super deep, but they have plenty of kits and common parts to get started with.
- JAlexoid 6y ago
  Yep. I can go to a store and get literally everything to build a smart lights control system for my mother's apartment - in Vilnius, Lithuania. https://www.lemona.lt/?page=item&i_id=60796 https://www.lemona.lt/?page=item&i_id=60796 The irony - I cannot do the same in NYC, but the components that I can buy online are cheaper here.
- dragontamer 6y ago
  I'm able to at Microcenter here in the USA. Picked me up a cheap oscilloscope too.
  - mNovak 6y ago
    I do love Microcenter, but the one in my hometown I've never seen bare components. Actually nothing hobby-centric really at all, not even breakout boards or small modules.

foldr 6y ago

Manufacturing with JLC only takes a day or two. Delivery speed depends on which courier you choose. I’m in London and often get boards within a week via DHL, or 2 weeks with the cheaper shipping option. Breadboards are mostly useless these days because very few components of interest are through-hole and many circuits don’t work at all on breadboards (e.g. switching regulators). I’m a hobbyist and virtually never use breadboards. If you just want to play around with simple circuits then sure, use a breadboard. But you are really missing out if you don't take advantage of cheap PCB manufacturing and the enormous range of amazing SMD components. There’s nothing “special” about a hot air station. I paid £35 for mine and it works fine. It's easy to learn how to solder SMD components. Beginners will screw it up, but that's the whole point of being a beginner, right? Solder bridges are very easy to fix with flux. >and disregard the "special offer" garbage that only applies to your first order It doesn't only apply to your first order. I've ordered at the $2 price many times. In any case, there are many Chinese PCB fabs of approximately equivalent quality, and you can almost always find one that has a promotional rate of some kind.

rytis 6y ago
so 100x100mm pcb, 2 layers, x5, manufacturing costs - £1.56 12-16 business day delivery - £4.18 7-9 days - £9.25 4-6 dhl standard - £15.58 I think 30pcs protoboard for £9.90 with next day delivery from amazon still beats the custom made pcbs. And I don't need to spend time making sure my pcb design is 100% bug free... Again, speaking from the hobbyist point of view.
- foldr 6y ago
  I’m also speaking from the hobbyist point of view. There’s obviously nothing wrong with using protoboard if it works for you. Here’s why I don’t. First, virtually none of the components I want to use are available in DIP packages. E.g., there are many great, very cheap, ARM Cortex microcontrollers that just don’t come in DIP packages. Second, I have fewer problems with mistakes when I use PCBs. The EDA software checks that my board matches my schematic, so I only have to worry about errors in my schematic. And it’s not that difficult to make small corrections to a PCB with bodge wires if one or two connections are wrong. I’ve certainly made PCBs with errors, but I’ve never made one with so many errors that it was entirely unusable. Third, the end result is a nice, neat, durable PCB, rather than an ugly tangle of wires. And other people can easily make one using your gerbers. Fourth, you can use switching regulators and other layout-sensitive components. For these reasons, I’d encourage any hobbyist to take advantage of the incredible service provided by Chinese PCB fabs. You can do so much more with a custom PCB than you can with protoboard.
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
    To be fair - you're already in advanced stages, when you're looking into ARM MCUs. PIC10F is $0.55 at Mouser. You can make a programmer for it with an USB-RS232 cable and few other cheap components. That is what I call beginner cheap. Even assembler for it is dead simple.
    - foldr 6y ago
      Even for PIC and Atmel, you have much more choice if you're ok with QFN and TSOP packages. The ARM microcontrollers aren't actually so much harder to use than the Atmel ones. I remember thinking that it was going to be much harder the first time I tried it, but if you stick with one of the popular ranges (e.g. STM), then the dev tools are good and there's lots of help available online.

mNovak 6y ago

>> you'll probably be able to pick up most through-hole components you want during the same trip Wait, you can buy discrete electronics components in a physical store?

DanBC 6y ago
Sure. Here's one in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, UK: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.9034553,-2.0801054,3a,41y,30.31h,84.84t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6JHb2WGHEjYhzs3Y1o83Qw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D6JHb2WGHEjYhzs3Y1o83Qw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D10.33875%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.9034553,-2.0801054,3a,41y,...
Nullabillity 6y ago
Kjell (my example from earlier) has physical stores throughout Sweden. Their offerings aren't super deep, but they have plenty of kits and common parts to get started with.
JAlexoid 6y ago
Yep. I can go to a store and get literally everything to build a smart lights control system for my mother's apartment - in Vilnius, Lithuania. https://www.lemona.lt/?page=item&i_id=60796 https://www.lemona.lt/?page=item&i_id=60796 The irony - I cannot do the same in NYC, but the components that I can buy online are cheaper here.
dragontamer 6y ago
I'm able to at Microcenter here in the USA. Picked me up a cheap oscilloscope too.
- mNovak 6y ago
  I do love Microcenter, but the one in my hometown I've never seen bare components. Actually nothing hobby-centric really at all, not even breakout boards or small modules.