6 ms·

The issue I am refering to is not the technical barriers with SMD but the cost both for low-volume PCB manufacturing and SMD tooling. For a lot of economies an

The issue I am refering to is not the technical barriers with SMD but the cost both for low-volume PCB manufacturing and SMD tooling. For a lot of economies an SMD design immediately prices out a lot first-time makers. Specially if you compare that with a $1 veroboard and a $10 soldering iron.

foldr 6y ago
You can get simple two layer PCBs made for virtually nothing these days (even at low volumes). There's no cost-related reason to avoid using a PCB. You'll probably save money overall by being able to use cheaper SMD components. You don't need any special tooling to solder SMD components, either. A temperature controlled soldering iron and a cheap hot air station are perfectly sufficient. To make this a bit more concrete, consider that you can get 10 custom two-layer PCBs made for $2: https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote?orderType=1&stencilWidth=100&stencilLength=100&stencilCounts=5&stencilLayer=2&stencilPly=1.6&steelmeshSellingPriceRecordNum=A8256537-5522-491C-965C-646F5842AEC9&purchaseNumber= https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote?orderType=1&stencilWidth=100&s...
- DoingIsLearning 6y ago
  This largely ignores the reality in much of the world outside North America, Europe, and some parts of Asia. > You can get simple two layer PCBs made for virtually nothing Sure you can produce them in Shenzhen for virtually nothing but try getting it shipped to Cartagena, Colombia, or Maxixe, Mozambique and then tell me how cheap they get. > A temperature controlled soldering iron and a cheap hot air station That is a 'cheap' under $100 setup in a lot of places, but $100 is also the monthly paycheck for a lot of people. Compare that with a $10 soldering iron and honestly consider how are they equivalent outside a developed country.
  - foldr 6y ago
    >try getting it shipped to Cartagena, Colombia, or Maxixe, Mozambique and then tell me how cheap they get. Sure, but components and all of your other equipment also have to be shipped. >That is a 'cheap' under $100 setup in a lot of places, but $100 is also the monthly paycheck for a lot of people. I'm fully aware of that, but you at least need a decent soldering iron whatever kind of components you're using. The hot air station is optional if you avoid QFN. These days you only save a little by getting a non-temperature-controlled iron, and it's a massive reduction in utility.
    - DoingIsLearning 6y ago
      > Sure, but components and all of your other equipment also have to be shipped. Those are not custom parts, they are shipped in bulk. > but you at least need a decent soldering iron There are people out there who cannot afford to _need_ a $40 temperature controlled soldering iron, and irrespective of the lottery of where they were born in the world, they still have an interest in (and often a need to repair) electronics. The industry trend of ending dip package options is inevitable but it also makes things harder for many makers across developing countries.
      - monocasa 6y ago
        > Those are not custom parts, they are shipped in bulk. Not if no one else in Mozambique wants those parts.
    - JAlexoid 6y ago
      You don't need to go outside of EU to get lack of availability of fast deliveries.
- Nullabillity 6y ago
  A chinese 5x run of a two-layer PCB from JLC is $13 incl shipping to Sweden, and takes 3-4 weeks for mfg and delivery.[0] You can speed it up a bit by going with a local mfg like Svensk Elektronikproduktion, who charges $154 but "only" takes ~2 weeks.[1] Or you can head down to Kjell&co, pick up a few breadboards for $10[2] or a perfboard for $8[3], and be home again in 20 minutes. Which do you think is more approachable for hobbyists? Oh, and you'll probably be able to pick up most through-hole components you want during the same trip, while SMD stuff usually needs to be ordered online. > You don't need any special tooling to solder SMD components, either. A temperature controlled soldering iron and a cheap hot air station are perfectly sufficient. I'd say a hot air station qualifies as special tooling. But disregarding that, while I can agree for passive components, even tiny SMD MCUs tend to have their legs packed close enough that solder bridges are practically inevitable for beginners. [0]: https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote, remember to add shipping and disregard the "special offer" garbage that only applies to your first order [1]: http://www.svenskelektronikproduktion.se/en/webshop/prototype-assembly.php http://www.svenskelektronikproduktion.se/en/webshop/prototyp..., remember to add shipping cost and add the 25% VAT [2]: https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/elektroniklabb/luxorparts-kopplingsdack-400-anslutningar-2-pack-p36283 https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/ele... [3]: https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/monsterkort/experimentkort/experimentkort-fr2-100x160-mm-banor-p89416 https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/mon...
  - foldr 6y ago
    Manufacturing with JLC only takes a day or two. Delivery speed depends on which courier you choose. I’m in London and often get boards within a week via DHL, or 2 weeks with the cheaper shipping option. Breadboards are mostly useless these days because very few components of interest are through-hole and many circuits don’t work at all on breadboards (e.g. switching regulators). I’m a hobbyist and virtually never use breadboards. If you just want to play around with simple circuits then sure, use a breadboard. But you are really missing out if you don't take advantage of cheap PCB manufacturing and the enormous range of amazing SMD components. There’s nothing “special” about a hot air station. I paid £35 for mine and it works fine. It's easy to learn how to solder SMD components. Beginners will screw it up, but that's the whole point of being a beginner, right? Solder bridges are very easy to fix with flux. >and disregard the "special offer" garbage that only applies to your first order It doesn't only apply to your first order. I've ordered at the $2 price many times. In any case, there are many Chinese PCB fabs of approximately equivalent quality, and you can almost always find one that has a promotional rate of some kind.
- nerfhammer 6y ago
  I would agree that it's easier than it used to be and easier than it might seem, but for an absolute beginner it requires several more skill sets to be able to get started with.
- ticviking 6y ago
  I'm volunteering in a school in Rural VA, and about half our students couldn't afford a class where we had to pay $0.20 per circuit we make. Most of them can't afford the $20 class fee, and we waive it and make do somehow anyways.
  - kps 6y ago
    That reflects my childhood. HN is full of sheltered silver-spoon kids, or to use the current vernacular, unacknowledged class privilege.
    - foldr 6y ago
      Give me a break. I couldn't afford to be an electronics hobbyist when I was a kid either. The only question here is over whether you actually save any money by using through-hole components. Only the madness of the internet could turn this discussion into a debate about "surface mount privilege". By focusing only on the transition away from through-hole you're missing the fact that everything has got vastly less costly. Temperature controlled irons are much cheaper than they used to be. High quality PCBs are ridiculously cheap. You can buy a microcontroller for $1 that's more powerful than an 80s home computer. If you have a limited budget, you want to be doing electronics now, not in the 1980s. I have every sympathy for kids around the world who can't afford to pursue their hobbies, but electronics is more affordable and accessible than it's ever been.
  - foldr 6y ago
    >I'm volunteering in a school in Rural VA, and about half our students couldn't afford a class where we had to pay $0.20 per circuit we make. If you're ordering for an entire series of classes, then you could probably get the cost of each individual PCB under $0.20. It would take some forward planning, but it's doable. In general, it's common for kids to have no money. (I had no money when I was a kid.) If you are doing electronics on an extreme budget then naturally you'll just have to use whatever equipment you can get hold of. But PCBs are really really really cheap. If you cannot afford PCBs you probably can't afford lots of other things that you need. That's not to say that you should be using PCBs. I have no experience teaching kids electronics.

foldr 6y ago

You can get simple two layer PCBs made for virtually nothing these days (even at low volumes). There's no cost-related reason to avoid using a PCB. You'll probably save money overall by being able to use cheaper SMD components. You don't need any special tooling to solder SMD components, either. A temperature controlled soldering iron and a cheap hot air station are perfectly sufficient. To make this a bit more concrete, consider that you can get 10 custom two-layer PCBs made for $2: https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote?orderType=1&stencilWidth=100&stencilLength=100&stencilCounts=5&stencilLayer=2&stencilPly=1.6&steelmeshSellingPriceRecordNum=A8256537-5522-491C-965C-646F5842AEC9&purchaseNumber= https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote?orderType=1&stencilWidth=100&s...

DoingIsLearning 6y ago
This largely ignores the reality in much of the world outside North America, Europe, and some parts of Asia. > You can get simple two layer PCBs made for virtually nothing Sure you can produce them in Shenzhen for virtually nothing but try getting it shipped to Cartagena, Colombia, or Maxixe, Mozambique and then tell me how cheap they get. > A temperature controlled soldering iron and a cheap hot air station That is a 'cheap' under $100 setup in a lot of places, but $100 is also the monthly paycheck for a lot of people. Compare that with a $10 soldering iron and honestly consider how are they equivalent outside a developed country.
- foldr 6y ago
  >try getting it shipped to Cartagena, Colombia, or Maxixe, Mozambique and then tell me how cheap they get. Sure, but components and all of your other equipment also have to be shipped. >That is a 'cheap' under $100 setup in a lot of places, but $100 is also the monthly paycheck for a lot of people. I'm fully aware of that, but you at least need a decent soldering iron whatever kind of components you're using. The hot air station is optional if you avoid QFN. These days you only save a little by getting a non-temperature-controlled iron, and it's a massive reduction in utility.
  - DoingIsLearning 6y ago
    > Sure, but components and all of your other equipment also have to be shipped. Those are not custom parts, they are shipped in bulk. > but you at least need a decent soldering iron There are people out there who cannot afford to _need_ a $40 temperature controlled soldering iron, and irrespective of the lottery of where they were born in the world, they still have an interest in (and often a need to repair) electronics. The industry trend of ending dip package options is inevitable but it also makes things harder for many makers across developing countries.
    - monocasa 6y ago
      > Those are not custom parts, they are shipped in bulk. Not if no one else in Mozambique wants those parts.
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
    You don't need to go outside of EU to get lack of availability of fast deliveries.
Nullabillity 6y ago
A chinese 5x run of a two-layer PCB from JLC is $13 incl shipping to Sweden, and takes 3-4 weeks for mfg and delivery.[0] You can speed it up a bit by going with a local mfg like Svensk Elektronikproduktion, who charges $154 but "only" takes ~2 weeks.[1] Or you can head down to Kjell&co, pick up a few breadboards for $10[2] or a perfboard for $8[3], and be home again in 20 minutes. Which do you think is more approachable for hobbyists? Oh, and you'll probably be able to pick up most through-hole components you want during the same trip, while SMD stuff usually needs to be ordered online. > You don't need any special tooling to solder SMD components, either. A temperature controlled soldering iron and a cheap hot air station are perfectly sufficient. I'd say a hot air station qualifies as special tooling. But disregarding that, while I can agree for passive components, even tiny SMD MCUs tend to have their legs packed close enough that solder bridges are practically inevitable for beginners. [0]: https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote, remember to add shipping and disregard the "special offer" garbage that only applies to your first order [1]: http://www.svenskelektronikproduktion.se/en/webshop/prototype-assembly.php http://www.svenskelektronikproduktion.se/en/webshop/prototyp..., remember to add shipping cost and add the 25% VAT [2]: https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/elektroniklabb/luxorparts-kopplingsdack-400-anslutningar-2-pack-p36283 https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/ele... [3]: https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/monsterkort/experimentkort/experimentkort-fr2-100x160-mm-banor-p89416 https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/mon...
- foldr 6y ago
  Manufacturing with JLC only takes a day or two. Delivery speed depends on which courier you choose. I’m in London and often get boards within a week via DHL, or 2 weeks with the cheaper shipping option. Breadboards are mostly useless these days because very few components of interest are through-hole and many circuits don’t work at all on breadboards (e.g. switching regulators). I’m a hobbyist and virtually never use breadboards. If you just want to play around with simple circuits then sure, use a breadboard. But you are really missing out if you don't take advantage of cheap PCB manufacturing and the enormous range of amazing SMD components. There’s nothing “special” about a hot air station. I paid £35 for mine and it works fine. It's easy to learn how to solder SMD components. Beginners will screw it up, but that's the whole point of being a beginner, right? Solder bridges are very easy to fix with flux. >and disregard the "special offer" garbage that only applies to your first order It doesn't only apply to your first order. I've ordered at the $2 price many times. In any case, there are many Chinese PCB fabs of approximately equivalent quality, and you can almost always find one that has a promotional rate of some kind.
nerfhammer 6y ago
I would agree that it's easier than it used to be and easier than it might seem, but for an absolute beginner it requires several more skill sets to be able to get started with.
ticviking 6y ago
I'm volunteering in a school in Rural VA, and about half our students couldn't afford a class where we had to pay $0.20 per circuit we make. Most of them can't afford the $20 class fee, and we waive it and make do somehow anyways.
- kps 6y ago
  That reflects my childhood. HN is full of sheltered silver-spoon kids, or to use the current vernacular, unacknowledged class privilege.
  - foldr 6y ago
    Give me a break. I couldn't afford to be an electronics hobbyist when I was a kid either. The only question here is over whether you actually save any money by using through-hole components. Only the madness of the internet could turn this discussion into a debate about "surface mount privilege". By focusing only on the transition away from through-hole you're missing the fact that everything has got vastly less costly. Temperature controlled irons are much cheaper than they used to be. High quality PCBs are ridiculously cheap. You can buy a microcontroller for $1 that's more powerful than an 80s home computer. If you have a limited budget, you want to be doing electronics now, not in the 1980s. I have every sympathy for kids around the world who can't afford to pursue their hobbies, but electronics is more affordable and accessible than it's ever been.
- foldr 6y ago
  >I'm volunteering in a school in Rural VA, and about half our students couldn't afford a class where we had to pay $0.20 per circuit we make. If you're ordering for an entire series of classes, then you could probably get the cost of each individual PCB under $0.20. It would take some forward planning, but it's doable. In general, it's common for kids to have no money. (I had no money when I was a kid.) If you are doing electronics on an extreme budget then naturally you'll just have to use whatever equipment you can get hold of. But PCBs are really really really cheap. If you cannot afford PCBs you probably can't afford lots of other things that you need. That's not to say that you should be using PCBs. I have no experience teaching kids electronics.