11 ms·

I think the through-hole vs SMD difference is mostly psychological. 'large' SMD devices where you can see the pins (not BGA and such) are often easier to solder

I think the through-hole vs SMD difference is mostly psychological. 'large' SMD devices where you can see the pins (not BGA and such) are often easier to solder (and easier to fabricate PCBs for, because you don't need to drill holes precisely).

DoingIsLearning 6y ago
The issue I am refering to is not the technical barriers with SMD but the cost both for low-volume PCB manufacturing and SMD tooling. For a lot of economies an SMD design immediately prices out a lot first-time makers. Specially if you compare that with a $1 veroboard and a $10 soldering iron.
- foldr 6y ago
  You can get simple two layer PCBs made for virtually nothing these days (even at low volumes). There's no cost-related reason to avoid using a PCB. You'll probably save money overall by being able to use cheaper SMD components. You don't need any special tooling to solder SMD components, either. A temperature controlled soldering iron and a cheap hot air station are perfectly sufficient. To make this a bit more concrete, consider that you can get 10 custom two-layer PCBs made for $2: https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote?orderType=1&stencilWidth=100&stencilLength=100&stencilCounts=5&stencilLayer=2&stencilPly=1.6&steelmeshSellingPriceRecordNum=A8256537-5522-491C-965C-646F5842AEC9&purchaseNumber= https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote?orderType=1&stencilWidth=100&s...
  - DoingIsLearning 6y ago
    This largely ignores the reality in much of the world outside North America, Europe, and some parts of Asia. > You can get simple two layer PCBs made for virtually nothing Sure you can produce them in Shenzhen for virtually nothing but try getting it shipped to Cartagena, Colombia, or Maxixe, Mozambique and then tell me how cheap they get. > A temperature controlled soldering iron and a cheap hot air station That is a 'cheap' under $100 setup in a lot of places, but $100 is also the monthly paycheck for a lot of people. Compare that with a $10 soldering iron and honestly consider how are they equivalent outside a developed country.
    - foldr 6y ago
      >try getting it shipped to Cartagena, Colombia, or Maxixe, Mozambique and then tell me how cheap they get. Sure, but components and all of your other equipment also have to be shipped. >That is a 'cheap' under $100 setup in a lot of places, but $100 is also the monthly paycheck for a lot of people. I'm fully aware of that, but you at least need a decent soldering iron whatever kind of components you're using. The hot air station is optional if you avoid QFN. These days you only save a little by getting a non-temperature-controlled iron, and it's a massive reduction in utility.
      - DoingIsLearning 6y ago
        > Sure, but components and all of your other equipment also have to be shipped. Those are not custom parts, they are shipped in bulk. > but you at least need a decent soldering iron There are people out there who cannot afford to _need_ a $40 temperature controlled soldering iron, and irrespective of the lottery of where they were born in the world, they still have an interest in (and often a need to repair) electronics. The industry trend of ending dip package options is inevitable but it also makes things harder for many makers across developing countries.
        monocasa 6y ago
        > Those are not custom parts, they are shipped in bulk. Not if no one else in Mozambique wants those parts.
      - JAlexoid 6y ago
        You don't need to go outside of EU to get lack of availability of fast deliveries.
  - Nullabillity 6y ago
    A chinese 5x run of a two-layer PCB from JLC is $13 incl shipping to Sweden, and takes 3-4 weeks for mfg and delivery.[0] You can speed it up a bit by going with a local mfg like Svensk Elektronikproduktion, who charges $154 but "only" takes ~2 weeks.[1] Or you can head down to Kjell&co, pick up a few breadboards for $10[2] or a perfboard for $8[3], and be home again in 20 minutes. Which do you think is more approachable for hobbyists? Oh, and you'll probably be able to pick up most through-hole components you want during the same trip, while SMD stuff usually needs to be ordered online. > You don't need any special tooling to solder SMD components, either. A temperature controlled soldering iron and a cheap hot air station are perfectly sufficient. I'd say a hot air station qualifies as special tooling. But disregarding that, while I can agree for passive components, even tiny SMD MCUs tend to have their legs packed close enough that solder bridges are practically inevitable for beginners. [0]: https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote, remember to add shipping and disregard the "special offer" garbage that only applies to your first order [1]: http://www.svenskelektronikproduktion.se/en/webshop/prototype-assembly.php http://www.svenskelektronikproduktion.se/en/webshop/prototyp..., remember to add shipping cost and add the 25% VAT [2]: https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/elektroniklabb/luxorparts-kopplingsdack-400-anslutningar-2-pack-p36283 https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/ele... [3]: https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/monsterkort/experimentkort/experimentkort-fr2-100x160-mm-banor-p89416 https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/mon...
    - foldr 6y ago
      Manufacturing with JLC only takes a day or two. Delivery speed depends on which courier you choose. I’m in London and often get boards within a week via DHL, or 2 weeks with the cheaper shipping option. Breadboards are mostly useless these days because very few components of interest are through-hole and many circuits don’t work at all on breadboards (e.g. switching regulators). I’m a hobbyist and virtually never use breadboards. If you just want to play around with simple circuits then sure, use a breadboard. But you are really missing out if you don't take advantage of cheap PCB manufacturing and the enormous range of amazing SMD components. There’s nothing “special” about a hot air station. I paid £35 for mine and it works fine. It's easy to learn how to solder SMD components. Beginners will screw it up, but that's the whole point of being a beginner, right? Solder bridges are very easy to fix with flux. >and disregard the "special offer" garbage that only applies to your first order It doesn't only apply to your first order. I've ordered at the $2 price many times. In any case, there are many Chinese PCB fabs of approximately equivalent quality, and you can almost always find one that has a promotional rate of some kind.
  - nerfhammer 6y ago
    I would agree that it's easier than it used to be and easier than it might seem, but for an absolute beginner it requires several more skill sets to be able to get started with.
  - ticviking 6y ago
    I'm volunteering in a school in Rural VA, and about half our students couldn't afford a class where we had to pay $0.20 per circuit we make. Most of them can't afford the $20 class fee, and we waive it and make do somehow anyways.
    - kps 6y ago
      That reflects my childhood. HN is full of sheltered silver-spoon kids, or to use the current vernacular, unacknowledged class privilege.
      - foldr 6y ago
        Give me a break. I couldn't afford to be an electronics hobbyist when I was a kid either. The only question here is over whether you actually save any money by using through-hole components. Only the madness of the internet could turn this discussion into a debate about "surface mount privilege". By focusing only on the transition away from through-hole you're missing the fact that everything has got vastly less costly. Temperature controlled irons are much cheaper than they used to be. High quality PCBs are ridiculously cheap. You can buy a microcontroller for $1 that's more powerful than an 80s home computer. If you have a limited budget, you want to be doing electronics now, not in the 1980s. I have every sympathy for kids around the world who can't afford to pursue their hobbies, but electronics is more affordable and accessible than it's ever been.
    - foldr 6y ago
      >I'm volunteering in a school in Rural VA, and about half our students couldn't afford a class where we had to pay $0.20 per circuit we make. If you're ordering for an entire series of classes, then you could probably get the cost of each individual PCB under $0.20. It would take some forward planning, but it's doable. In general, it's common for kids to have no money. (I had no money when I was a kid.) If you are doing electronics on an extreme budget then naturally you'll just have to use whatever equipment you can get hold of. But PCBs are really really really cheap. If you cannot afford PCBs you probably can't afford lots of other things that you need. That's not to say that you should be using PCBs. I have no experience teaching kids electronics.
yitchelle 6y ago
I think that you are mostly correct for those who has the correct soldering iron and skills. One thing that I have found is PTH is much more forgiving than SMD. The copper tracks and pads are typically much heavier and can tolerate a lot more abuse from the less skilled.
LIV2 6y ago
You can get pcbs made for peanuts and soldering through hole components requires hardly any coordination at all. People who have been soldering their whole life find it easy to solder SMD because they have the coordination to do it and the temperature controlled station too. I can solder qfps and tssop no problem but it's still easier to solder a dip package, they can go in breadboards or perf board and you can bang together a circuit without temperature controlled stations or cad software
mytailorisrich 6y ago
As a DIY'er SMDs are a massive pain as they are hard to impossible to solder and need special PCBs, which I think is what DoingIsLearning is getting at. Holes are already drilled in your veroboard, that's what they are for, your job is to solder and you want it to be easy and simple.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  SMDs with leads and 0603 or larger are quite easy to solder in my experience, at least on a factory-made PCB with solder mask. I can hand assemble SMD faster than thorough-hole, using a temp-controlled iron for both. (I have hot air rework station as well, but most of my SMD assembly is with a fairly inexpensive iron.) SMD is a pain during prototyping and experimenting because they’re harder to use on breadboards (breakout boards are an additional step and possible point of failure). After the breadboarding stage, I think SMD is easier and faster.
  - kps 6y ago
    > in my experience In your experience. I solder under a stereo microscope, but I don't go smaller than 1206.
    - foldr 6y ago
      Everyone's different, but my experience tallies with sokoloff's. With the right technique it's no problem to solder 0603 with the naked eye. 0402 is possible but very fiddly. 0201 is really pushing it. A microscope is a useful aid, especially if you're longsighted.
- foldr 6y ago
  It's really not difficult to solder SMD components. See e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9FC9fAlfQE&t=1518s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9FC9fAlfQE&t=1518s for a good introduction to the relevant techniques.
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
JAlexoid 6y ago
It's not psychological. You're completely ignoring the cost of equipment. SMD only is a huge no-go for someone at the lower bracket of income. The cost of a perfboard, with a cheap soldering iron and components is a fraction of any kind of equipment you need to create a circuit board from scratch. I built voltage regulators for my electronics projects, because a regulated lab supply was completely out of financial reach. I couldn't have done it with a breadboard - I needed a permanent fixed board. I couldn't have done it with a copper laminate and etcher - because I couldn't afford $10 for the etch or a $40 dremel drill for the holes. I didn't have a programmer and I had to reuse the RS232 chips to program ATTiny2313. If people like you had their way, I would have probably been a barista...
- numpad0 6y ago
  Chinese iPhone repair guys are hand soldering SMDs all the time, you can definitely solder SMDs on THT perfs or get SMD perfs. It's more of the matters of your motor skills and perhaps whether you have a good video microscope if it gets really small.
  - rhn_mk1 6y ago
    Sure, but that doesn't make it easy, which was the point.
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
    1. That's racist. 2. They make money off it - thus higher value equipment. Definitely not a $10 soldering iron. 3. Building from scratch is about 100x easier and less error prone with through hole construction, than SMD. Soldering onto an existing PCB is not an issue at all here. 4. When you can't afford to scrap a $4 MCU, because you overheated it with your $5 soldering iron - DIP package can be mounted into a special socket. SMD - cannot.
    - numpad0 6y ago
      1) I said Chinese because not many people with other nationalities do PCB repairs on iPhone. People who aren’t trained by Chinese repair ... artists? are exceptionally rare. 2) 3) https://hackaday.com/2016/10/10/ne555s-smd-prototyping-is-a-work-of-art/ https://hackaday.com/2016/10/10/ne555s-smd-prototyping-is-a-... https://twitter.com/idzuna_tan/status/741895788469485569 https://twitter.com/idzuna_tan/status/741895788469485569 https://mitxela.com/projects/soldering_msop https://mitxela.com/projects/soldering_msop 4) https://www.adafruit.com/product/1280 https://www.adafruit.com/product/1280 0.65mm is def doable, 0602 caps are hard, below or BGA needs microscope but only from there you need proper equipments

DoingIsLearning 6y ago

The issue I am refering to is not the technical barriers with SMD but the cost both for low-volume PCB manufacturing and SMD tooling. For a lot of economies an SMD design immediately prices out a lot first-time makers. Specially if you compare that with a $1 veroboard and a $10 soldering iron.

foldr 6y ago
You can get simple two layer PCBs made for virtually nothing these days (even at low volumes). There's no cost-related reason to avoid using a PCB. You'll probably save money overall by being able to use cheaper SMD components. You don't need any special tooling to solder SMD components, either. A temperature controlled soldering iron and a cheap hot air station are perfectly sufficient. To make this a bit more concrete, consider that you can get 10 custom two-layer PCBs made for $2: https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote?orderType=1&stencilWidth=100&stencilLength=100&stencilCounts=5&stencilLayer=2&stencilPly=1.6&steelmeshSellingPriceRecordNum=A8256537-5522-491C-965C-646F5842AEC9&purchaseNumber= https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote?orderType=1&stencilWidth=100&s...
- DoingIsLearning 6y ago
  This largely ignores the reality in much of the world outside North America, Europe, and some parts of Asia. > You can get simple two layer PCBs made for virtually nothing Sure you can produce them in Shenzhen for virtually nothing but try getting it shipped to Cartagena, Colombia, or Maxixe, Mozambique and then tell me how cheap they get. > A temperature controlled soldering iron and a cheap hot air station That is a 'cheap' under $100 setup in a lot of places, but $100 is also the monthly paycheck for a lot of people. Compare that with a $10 soldering iron and honestly consider how are they equivalent outside a developed country.
  - foldr 6y ago
    >try getting it shipped to Cartagena, Colombia, or Maxixe, Mozambique and then tell me how cheap they get. Sure, but components and all of your other equipment also have to be shipped. >That is a 'cheap' under $100 setup in a lot of places, but $100 is also the monthly paycheck for a lot of people. I'm fully aware of that, but you at least need a decent soldering iron whatever kind of components you're using. The hot air station is optional if you avoid QFN. These days you only save a little by getting a non-temperature-controlled iron, and it's a massive reduction in utility.
    - DoingIsLearning 6y ago
      > Sure, but components and all of your other equipment also have to be shipped. Those are not custom parts, they are shipped in bulk. > but you at least need a decent soldering iron There are people out there who cannot afford to _need_ a $40 temperature controlled soldering iron, and irrespective of the lottery of where they were born in the world, they still have an interest in (and often a need to repair) electronics. The industry trend of ending dip package options is inevitable but it also makes things harder for many makers across developing countries.
      - monocasa 6y ago
        > Those are not custom parts, they are shipped in bulk. Not if no one else in Mozambique wants those parts.
    - JAlexoid 6y ago
      You don't need to go outside of EU to get lack of availability of fast deliveries.
- Nullabillity 6y ago
  A chinese 5x run of a two-layer PCB from JLC is $13 incl shipping to Sweden, and takes 3-4 weeks for mfg and delivery.[0] You can speed it up a bit by going with a local mfg like Svensk Elektronikproduktion, who charges $154 but "only" takes ~2 weeks.[1] Or you can head down to Kjell&co, pick up a few breadboards for $10[2] or a perfboard for $8[3], and be home again in 20 minutes. Which do you think is more approachable for hobbyists? Oh, and you'll probably be able to pick up most through-hole components you want during the same trip, while SMD stuff usually needs to be ordered online. > You don't need any special tooling to solder SMD components, either. A temperature controlled soldering iron and a cheap hot air station are perfectly sufficient. I'd say a hot air station qualifies as special tooling. But disregarding that, while I can agree for passive components, even tiny SMD MCUs tend to have their legs packed close enough that solder bridges are practically inevitable for beginners. [0]: https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote, remember to add shipping and disregard the "special offer" garbage that only applies to your first order [1]: http://www.svenskelektronikproduktion.se/en/webshop/prototype-assembly.php http://www.svenskelektronikproduktion.se/en/webshop/prototyp..., remember to add shipping cost and add the 25% VAT [2]: https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/elektroniklabb/luxorparts-kopplingsdack-400-anslutningar-2-pack-p36283 https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/ele... [3]: https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/monsterkort/experimentkort/experimentkort-fr2-100x160-mm-banor-p89416 https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/el-verktyg/elektronik/mon...
  - foldr 6y ago
    Manufacturing with JLC only takes a day or two. Delivery speed depends on which courier you choose. I’m in London and often get boards within a week via DHL, or 2 weeks with the cheaper shipping option. Breadboards are mostly useless these days because very few components of interest are through-hole and many circuits don’t work at all on breadboards (e.g. switching regulators). I’m a hobbyist and virtually never use breadboards. If you just want to play around with simple circuits then sure, use a breadboard. But you are really missing out if you don't take advantage of cheap PCB manufacturing and the enormous range of amazing SMD components. There’s nothing “special” about a hot air station. I paid £35 for mine and it works fine. It's easy to learn how to solder SMD components. Beginners will screw it up, but that's the whole point of being a beginner, right? Solder bridges are very easy to fix with flux. >and disregard the "special offer" garbage that only applies to your first order It doesn't only apply to your first order. I've ordered at the $2 price many times. In any case, there are many Chinese PCB fabs of approximately equivalent quality, and you can almost always find one that has a promotional rate of some kind.
- nerfhammer 6y ago
  I would agree that it's easier than it used to be and easier than it might seem, but for an absolute beginner it requires several more skill sets to be able to get started with.
- ticviking 6y ago
  I'm volunteering in a school in Rural VA, and about half our students couldn't afford a class where we had to pay $0.20 per circuit we make. Most of them can't afford the $20 class fee, and we waive it and make do somehow anyways.
  - kps 6y ago
    That reflects my childhood. HN is full of sheltered silver-spoon kids, or to use the current vernacular, unacknowledged class privilege.
    - foldr 6y ago
      Give me a break. I couldn't afford to be an electronics hobbyist when I was a kid either. The only question here is over whether you actually save any money by using through-hole components. Only the madness of the internet could turn this discussion into a debate about "surface mount privilege". By focusing only on the transition away from through-hole you're missing the fact that everything has got vastly less costly. Temperature controlled irons are much cheaper than they used to be. High quality PCBs are ridiculously cheap. You can buy a microcontroller for $1 that's more powerful than an 80s home computer. If you have a limited budget, you want to be doing electronics now, not in the 1980s. I have every sympathy for kids around the world who can't afford to pursue their hobbies, but electronics is more affordable and accessible than it's ever been.
  - foldr 6y ago
    >I'm volunteering in a school in Rural VA, and about half our students couldn't afford a class where we had to pay $0.20 per circuit we make. If you're ordering for an entire series of classes, then you could probably get the cost of each individual PCB under $0.20. It would take some forward planning, but it's doable. In general, it's common for kids to have no money. (I had no money when I was a kid.) If you are doing electronics on an extreme budget then naturally you'll just have to use whatever equipment you can get hold of. But PCBs are really really really cheap. If you cannot afford PCBs you probably can't afford lots of other things that you need. That's not to say that you should be using PCBs. I have no experience teaching kids electronics.

yitchelle 6y ago

I think that you are mostly correct for those who has the correct soldering iron and skills. One thing that I have found is PTH is much more forgiving than SMD. The copper tracks and pads are typically much heavier and can tolerate a lot more abuse from the less skilled.

LIV2 6y ago

You can get pcbs made for peanuts and soldering through hole components requires hardly any coordination at all. People who have been soldering their whole life find it easy to solder SMD because they have the coordination to do it and the temperature controlled station too. I can solder qfps and tssop no problem but it's still easier to solder a dip package, they can go in breadboards or perf board and you can bang together a circuit without temperature controlled stations or cad software

mytailorisrich 6y ago

As a DIY'er SMDs are a massive pain as they are hard to impossible to solder and need special PCBs, which I think is what DoingIsLearning is getting at. Holes are already drilled in your veroboard, that's what they are for, your job is to solder and you want it to be easy and simple.

sokoloff 6y ago
SMDs with leads and 0603 or larger are quite easy to solder in my experience, at least on a factory-made PCB with solder mask. I can hand assemble SMD faster than thorough-hole, using a temp-controlled iron for both. (I have hot air rework station as well, but most of my SMD assembly is with a fairly inexpensive iron.) SMD is a pain during prototyping and experimenting because they’re harder to use on breadboards (breakout boards are an additional step and possible point of failure). After the breadboarding stage, I think SMD is easier and faster.
- kps 6y ago
  > in my experience In your experience. I solder under a stereo microscope, but I don't go smaller than 1206.
  - foldr 6y ago
    Everyone's different, but my experience tallies with sokoloff's. With the right technique it's no problem to solder 0603 with the naked eye. 0402 is possible but very fiddly. 0201 is really pushing it. A microscope is a useful aid, especially if you're longsighted.
foldr 6y ago
It's really not difficult to solder SMD components. See e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9FC9fAlfQE&t=1518s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9FC9fAlfQE&t=1518s for a good introduction to the relevant techniques.
- JAlexoid 6y ago

JAlexoid 6y ago

It's not psychological. You're completely ignoring the cost of equipment. SMD only is a huge no-go for someone at the lower bracket of income. The cost of a perfboard, with a cheap soldering iron and components is a fraction of any kind of equipment you need to create a circuit board from scratch. I built voltage regulators for my electronics projects, because a regulated lab supply was completely out of financial reach. I couldn't have done it with a breadboard - I needed a permanent fixed board. I couldn't have done it with a copper laminate and etcher - because I couldn't afford $10 for the etch or a $40 dremel drill for the holes. I didn't have a programmer and I had to reuse the RS232 chips to program ATTiny2313. If people like you had their way, I would have probably been a barista...

numpad0 6y ago
Chinese iPhone repair guys are hand soldering SMDs all the time, you can definitely solder SMDs on THT perfs or get SMD perfs. It's more of the matters of your motor skills and perhaps whether you have a good video microscope if it gets really small.
- rhn_mk1 6y ago
  Sure, but that doesn't make it easy, which was the point.
- JAlexoid 6y ago
  1. That's racist. 2. They make money off it - thus higher value equipment. Definitely not a $10 soldering iron. 3. Building from scratch is about 100x easier and less error prone with through hole construction, than SMD. Soldering onto an existing PCB is not an issue at all here. 4. When you can't afford to scrap a $4 MCU, because you overheated it with your $5 soldering iron - DIP package can be mounted into a special socket. SMD - cannot.
  - numpad0 6y ago
    1) I said Chinese because not many people with other nationalities do PCB repairs on iPhone. People who aren’t trained by Chinese repair ... artists? are exceptionally rare. 2) 3) https://hackaday.com/2016/10/10/ne555s-smd-prototyping-is-a-work-of-art/ https://hackaday.com/2016/10/10/ne555s-smd-prototyping-is-a-... https://twitter.com/idzuna_tan/status/741895788469485569 https://twitter.com/idzuna_tan/status/741895788469485569 https://mitxela.com/projects/soldering_msop https://mitxela.com/projects/soldering_msop 4) https://www.adafruit.com/product/1280 https://www.adafruit.com/product/1280 0.65mm is def doable, 0602 caps are hard, below or BGA needs microscope but only from there you need proper equipments