8 ms·

I think it's a really cool tutorial but one thing I don't often see discussed about the 'benefits' of 8bit AVRs (and this tutorial misses that) is that there ar

I think it's a really cool tutorial but one thing I don't often see discussed about the 'benefits' of 8bit AVRs (and this tutorial misses that) is that there are still through-hole form factors available for those chips. I think most everyone has the technical skills to go through this tutorial but a large chunk of the developing world will not be able to afford pcb manufacturing and all the tooling for SMD components. Having an 8bit AVR with a through hole form factor democratizes access to electronics for a lot of people around the world. Any maker can take a 1$ veroboard and build a semi-permanent circuit board with a very crude soldering iron. Whereas if you miniaturize further with SMD formats, then the access to materials and tools becomes an economic barrier.

rcxdude 6y ago
I think the through-hole vs SMD difference is mostly psychological. 'large' SMD devices where you can see the pins (not BGA and such) are often easier to solder (and easier to fabricate PCBs for, because you don't need to drill holes precisely).
- DoingIsLearning 6y ago
  The issue I am refering to is not the technical barriers with SMD but the cost both for low-volume PCB manufacturing and SMD tooling. For a lot of economies an SMD design immediately prices out a lot first-time makers. Specially if you compare that with a $1 veroboard and a $10 soldering iron.
  - foldr 6y ago
    You can get simple two layer PCBs made for virtually nothing these days (even at low volumes). There's no cost-related reason to avoid using a PCB. You'll probably save money overall by being able to use cheaper SMD components. You don't need any special tooling to solder SMD components, either. A temperature controlled soldering iron and a cheap hot air station are perfectly sufficient. To make this a bit more concrete, consider that you can get 10 custom two-layer PCBs made for $2: https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote?orderType=1&stencilWidth=100&stencilLength=100&stencilCounts=5&stencilLayer=2&stencilPly=1.6&steelmeshSellingPriceRecordNum=A8256537-5522-491C-965C-646F5842AEC9&purchaseNumber= https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote?orderType=1&stencilWidth=100&s...
    - DoingIsLearning 6y ago
      This largely ignores the reality in much of the world outside North America, Europe, and some parts of Asia. > You can get simple two layer PCBs made for virtually nothing Sure you can produce them in Shenzhen for virtually nothing but try getting it shipped to Cartagena, Colombia, or Maxixe, Mozambique and then tell me how cheap they get. > A temperature controlled soldering iron and a cheap hot air station That is a 'cheap' under $100 setup in a lot of places, but $100 is also the monthly paycheck for a lot of people. Compare that with a $10 soldering iron and honestly consider how are they equivalent outside a developed country.
      - foldr 6y ago
        >try getting it shipped to Cartagena, Colombia, or Maxixe, Mozambique and then tell me how cheap they get. Sure, but components and all of your other equipment also have to be shipped. >That is a 'cheap' under $100 setup in a lot of places, but $100 is also the monthly paycheck for a lot of people. I'm fully aware of that, but you at least need a decent soldering iron whatever kind of components you're using. The hot air station is optional if you avoid QFN. These days you only save a little by getting a non-temperature-controlled iron, and it's a massive reduction in utility.
        DoingIsLearning 6y ago
        > Sure, but components and all of your other equipment also have to be shipped. Those are not custom parts, they are shipped in bulk. > but you at least need a decent soldering iron There are people out there who cannot afford to _need_ a $40 temperature controlled soldering iron, and irrespective of the lottery of where they were born in the world, they still have an interest in (and often a need to repair) electronics. The industry trend of ending dip package options is inevitable but it also makes things harder for many makers across developing countries.
        monocasa 6y ago
        > Those are not custom parts, they are shipped in bulk. Not if no one else in Mozambique wants those parts.
- yitchelle 6y ago
  I think that you are mostly correct for those who has the correct soldering iron and skills. One thing that I have found is PTH is much more forgiving than SMD. The copper tracks and pads are typically much heavier and can tolerate a lot more abuse from the less skilled.
- LIV2 6y ago
  You can get pcbs made for peanuts and soldering through hole components requires hardly any coordination at all. People who have been soldering their whole life find it easy to solder SMD because they have the coordination to do it and the temperature controlled station too. I can solder qfps and tssop no problem but it's still easier to solder a dip package, they can go in breadboards or perf board and you can bang together a circuit without temperature controlled stations or cad software
- mytailorisrich 6y ago
  As a DIY'er SMDs are a massive pain as they are hard to impossible to solder and need special PCBs, which I think is what DoingIsLearning is getting at. Holes are already drilled in your veroboard, that's what they are for, your job is to solder and you want it to be easy and simple.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    SMDs with leads and 0603 or larger are quite easy to solder in my experience, at least on a factory-made PCB with solder mask. I can hand assemble SMD faster than thorough-hole, using a temp-controlled iron for both. (I have hot air rework station as well, but most of my SMD assembly is with a fairly inexpensive iron.) SMD is a pain during prototyping and experimenting because they’re harder to use on breadboards (breakout boards are an additional step and possible point of failure). After the breadboarding stage, I think SMD is easier and faster.
    - kps 6y ago
      > in my experience In your experience. I solder under a stereo microscope, but I don't go smaller than 1206.
      - foldr 6y ago
        Everyone's different, but my experience tallies with sokoloff's. With the right technique it's no problem to solder 0603 with the naked eye. 0402 is possible but very fiddly. 0201 is really pushing it. A microscope is a useful aid, especially if you're longsighted.
  - foldr 6y ago
    It's really not difficult to solder SMD components. See e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9FC9fAlfQE&t=1518s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9FC9fAlfQE&t=1518s for a good introduction to the relevant techniques.
    - JAlexoid 6y ago
- JAlexoid 6y ago
  It's not psychological. You're completely ignoring the cost of equipment. SMD only is a huge no-go for someone at the lower bracket of income. The cost of a perfboard, with a cheap soldering iron and components is a fraction of any kind of equipment you need to create a circuit board from scratch. I built voltage regulators for my electronics projects, because a regulated lab supply was completely out of financial reach. I couldn't have done it with a breadboard - I needed a permanent fixed board. I couldn't have done it with a copper laminate and etcher - because I couldn't afford $10 for the etch or a $40 dremel drill for the holes. I didn't have a programmer and I had to reuse the RS232 chips to program ATTiny2313. If people like you had their way, I would have probably been a barista...
  - numpad0 6y ago
    Chinese iPhone repair guys are hand soldering SMDs all the time, you can definitely solder SMDs on THT perfs or get SMD perfs. It's more of the matters of your motor skills and perhaps whether you have a good video microscope if it gets really small.
    - rhn_mk1 6y ago
      Sure, but that doesn't make it easy, which was the point.
    - JAlexoid 6y ago
      1. That's racist. 2. They make money off it - thus higher value equipment. Definitely not a $10 soldering iron. 3. Building from scratch is about 100x easier and less error prone with through hole construction, than SMD. Soldering onto an existing PCB is not an issue at all here. 4. When you can't afford to scrap a $4 MCU, because you overheated it with your $5 soldering iron - DIP package can be mounted into a special socket. SMD - cannot.
      - numpad0 6y ago
        1) I said Chinese because not many people with other nationalities do PCB repairs on iPhone. People who aren’t trained by Chinese repair ... artists? are exceptionally rare. 2) 3) https://hackaday.com/2016/10/10/ne555s-smd-prototyping-is-a-work-of-art/ https://hackaday.com/2016/10/10/ne555s-smd-prototyping-is-a-... https://twitter.com/idzuna_tan/status/741895788469485569 https://twitter.com/idzuna_tan/status/741895788469485569 https://mitxela.com/projects/soldering_msop https://mitxela.com/projects/soldering_msop 4) https://www.adafruit.com/product/1280 https://www.adafruit.com/product/1280 0.65mm is def doable, 0602 caps are hard, below or BGA needs microscope but only from there you need proper equipments
mNovak 6y ago
>> access to materials and tools becomes an economic barrier I'm not sure that's true anymore. PCB fabrication is dirt cheap from the Chinese fabs. In terms of design, KiCAD is free and perfectly usable. Both design and assembly take some practice, sure, but they are valuable skills to learn. There's value in DIP packages for breadboarding, so you can get going quickly and iterate the design, but for anything permanent or semi-permanent, I don't see a big impact.
- JAlexoid 6y ago
  If you need a few things in your makeshift lab - perfboard/veroboard is perfect. You can go to your local electronics components store get a few bits and start programming AVR chips within a day. Using KiCAD, then waiting for the equipment and then soldering - that is already a barrier. Imagine you need a small voltage regulator on your DC supply line, because your cheap power supply spikes randomly... Are you going to wait for your PCB to be printed and a month for delivery(sometimes 2 months) and pay $6+ for a single board for delivery(components excluded, obv)... or you're getting a 10 pack of perfboards for $5, cut our the right size and have your voltage regulator within 10 minutes at a fraction of the cost...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - DoingIsLearning 6y ago
    I think the issue in this whole thread is that a lot of the people commenting on the benefits and merits of SMD development are failing to see the reality that the $6 for a board or $40 for a temperature controlled soldering iron are actually too much money in far too many parts of the world. Sure as professionals you might work with $20K oscilloscopes and relatively speaking spending less than $100 on a basic SMD soldering station is peanuts, but we need to appreciate this is simply not the reality for a lot of the world out there. This has nothing to do with the technical merits of SMD or how easy/hard it is to solder versus through-hole. For a lot of kids and makers in developing countries dip packages and veroboard are the only economically feasible gateway to start to make electronics. I don't understand why everybody is struggling to accept this. Perhaps it is just a failure to appreciate the economic lottery of where in the world we are born. To me it is sad that there are kids out there who would stop their curiousity just because of economic barriers, I hope AVR's dip packages continue to be produced for a long time to come.

rcxdude 6y ago

I think the through-hole vs SMD difference is mostly psychological. 'large' SMD devices where you can see the pins (not BGA and such) are often easier to solder (and easier to fabricate PCBs for, because you don't need to drill holes precisely).

DoingIsLearning 6y ago
The issue I am refering to is not the technical barriers with SMD but the cost both for low-volume PCB manufacturing and SMD tooling. For a lot of economies an SMD design immediately prices out a lot first-time makers. Specially if you compare that with a $1 veroboard and a $10 soldering iron.
- foldr 6y ago
  You can get simple two layer PCBs made for virtually nothing these days (even at low volumes). There's no cost-related reason to avoid using a PCB. You'll probably save money overall by being able to use cheaper SMD components. You don't need any special tooling to solder SMD components, either. A temperature controlled soldering iron and a cheap hot air station are perfectly sufficient. To make this a bit more concrete, consider that you can get 10 custom two-layer PCBs made for $2: https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote?orderType=1&stencilWidth=100&stencilLength=100&stencilCounts=5&stencilLayer=2&stencilPly=1.6&steelmeshSellingPriceRecordNum=A8256537-5522-491C-965C-646F5842AEC9&purchaseNumber= https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote?orderType=1&stencilWidth=100&s...
  - DoingIsLearning 6y ago
    This largely ignores the reality in much of the world outside North America, Europe, and some parts of Asia. > You can get simple two layer PCBs made for virtually nothing Sure you can produce them in Shenzhen for virtually nothing but try getting it shipped to Cartagena, Colombia, or Maxixe, Mozambique and then tell me how cheap they get. > A temperature controlled soldering iron and a cheap hot air station That is a 'cheap' under $100 setup in a lot of places, but $100 is also the monthly paycheck for a lot of people. Compare that with a $10 soldering iron and honestly consider how are they equivalent outside a developed country.
    - foldr 6y ago
      >try getting it shipped to Cartagena, Colombia, or Maxixe, Mozambique and then tell me how cheap they get. Sure, but components and all of your other equipment also have to be shipped. >That is a 'cheap' under $100 setup in a lot of places, but $100 is also the monthly paycheck for a lot of people. I'm fully aware of that, but you at least need a decent soldering iron whatever kind of components you're using. The hot air station is optional if you avoid QFN. These days you only save a little by getting a non-temperature-controlled iron, and it's a massive reduction in utility.
      - DoingIsLearning 6y ago
        > Sure, but components and all of your other equipment also have to be shipped. Those are not custom parts, they are shipped in bulk. > but you at least need a decent soldering iron There are people out there who cannot afford to _need_ a $40 temperature controlled soldering iron, and irrespective of the lottery of where they were born in the world, they still have an interest in (and often a need to repair) electronics. The industry trend of ending dip package options is inevitable but it also makes things harder for many makers across developing countries.
        monocasa 6y ago
        > Those are not custom parts, they are shipped in bulk. Not if no one else in Mozambique wants those parts.
yitchelle 6y ago
I think that you are mostly correct for those who has the correct soldering iron and skills. One thing that I have found is PTH is much more forgiving than SMD. The copper tracks and pads are typically much heavier and can tolerate a lot more abuse from the less skilled.
LIV2 6y ago
You can get pcbs made for peanuts and soldering through hole components requires hardly any coordination at all. People who have been soldering their whole life find it easy to solder SMD because they have the coordination to do it and the temperature controlled station too. I can solder qfps and tssop no problem but it's still easier to solder a dip package, they can go in breadboards or perf board and you can bang together a circuit without temperature controlled stations or cad software
mytailorisrich 6y ago
As a DIY'er SMDs are a massive pain as they are hard to impossible to solder and need special PCBs, which I think is what DoingIsLearning is getting at. Holes are already drilled in your veroboard, that's what they are for, your job is to solder and you want it to be easy and simple.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  SMDs with leads and 0603 or larger are quite easy to solder in my experience, at least on a factory-made PCB with solder mask. I can hand assemble SMD faster than thorough-hole, using a temp-controlled iron for both. (I have hot air rework station as well, but most of my SMD assembly is with a fairly inexpensive iron.) SMD is a pain during prototyping and experimenting because they’re harder to use on breadboards (breakout boards are an additional step and possible point of failure). After the breadboarding stage, I think SMD is easier and faster.
  - kps 6y ago
    > in my experience In your experience. I solder under a stereo microscope, but I don't go smaller than 1206.
    - foldr 6y ago
      Everyone's different, but my experience tallies with sokoloff's. With the right technique it's no problem to solder 0603 with the naked eye. 0402 is possible but very fiddly. 0201 is really pushing it. A microscope is a useful aid, especially if you're longsighted.
- foldr 6y ago
  It's really not difficult to solder SMD components. See e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9FC9fAlfQE&t=1518s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9FC9fAlfQE&t=1518s for a good introduction to the relevant techniques.
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
JAlexoid 6y ago
It's not psychological. You're completely ignoring the cost of equipment. SMD only is a huge no-go for someone at the lower bracket of income. The cost of a perfboard, with a cheap soldering iron and components is a fraction of any kind of equipment you need to create a circuit board from scratch. I built voltage regulators for my electronics projects, because a regulated lab supply was completely out of financial reach. I couldn't have done it with a breadboard - I needed a permanent fixed board. I couldn't have done it with a copper laminate and etcher - because I couldn't afford $10 for the etch or a $40 dremel drill for the holes. I didn't have a programmer and I had to reuse the RS232 chips to program ATTiny2313. If people like you had their way, I would have probably been a barista...
- numpad0 6y ago
  Chinese iPhone repair guys are hand soldering SMDs all the time, you can definitely solder SMDs on THT perfs or get SMD perfs. It's more of the matters of your motor skills and perhaps whether you have a good video microscope if it gets really small.
  - rhn_mk1 6y ago
    Sure, but that doesn't make it easy, which was the point.
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
    1. That's racist. 2. They make money off it - thus higher value equipment. Definitely not a $10 soldering iron. 3. Building from scratch is about 100x easier and less error prone with through hole construction, than SMD. Soldering onto an existing PCB is not an issue at all here. 4. When you can't afford to scrap a $4 MCU, because you overheated it with your $5 soldering iron - DIP package can be mounted into a special socket. SMD - cannot.
    - numpad0 6y ago
      1) I said Chinese because not many people with other nationalities do PCB repairs on iPhone. People who aren’t trained by Chinese repair ... artists? are exceptionally rare. 2) 3) https://hackaday.com/2016/10/10/ne555s-smd-prototyping-is-a-work-of-art/ https://hackaday.com/2016/10/10/ne555s-smd-prototyping-is-a-... https://twitter.com/idzuna_tan/status/741895788469485569 https://twitter.com/idzuna_tan/status/741895788469485569 https://mitxela.com/projects/soldering_msop https://mitxela.com/projects/soldering_msop 4) https://www.adafruit.com/product/1280 https://www.adafruit.com/product/1280 0.65mm is def doable, 0602 caps are hard, below or BGA needs microscope but only from there you need proper equipments

mNovak 6y ago

>> access to materials and tools becomes an economic barrier I'm not sure that's true anymore. PCB fabrication is dirt cheap from the Chinese fabs. In terms of design, KiCAD is free and perfectly usable. Both design and assembly take some practice, sure, but they are valuable skills to learn. There's value in DIP packages for breadboarding, so you can get going quickly and iterate the design, but for anything permanent or semi-permanent, I don't see a big impact.

JAlexoid 6y ago
If you need a few things in your makeshift lab - perfboard/veroboard is perfect. You can go to your local electronics components store get a few bits and start programming AVR chips within a day. Using KiCAD, then waiting for the equipment and then soldering - that is already a barrier. Imagine you need a small voltage regulator on your DC supply line, because your cheap power supply spikes randomly... Are you going to wait for your PCB to be printed and a month for delivery(sometimes 2 months) and pay $6+ for a single board for delivery(components excluded, obv)... or you're getting a 10 pack of perfboards for $5, cut our the right size and have your voltage regulator within 10 minutes at a fraction of the cost...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- DoingIsLearning 6y ago
  I think the issue in this whole thread is that a lot of the people commenting on the benefits and merits of SMD development are failing to see the reality that the $6 for a board or $40 for a temperature controlled soldering iron are actually too much money in far too many parts of the world. Sure as professionals you might work with $20K oscilloscopes and relatively speaking spending less than $100 on a basic SMD soldering station is peanuts, but we need to appreciate this is simply not the reality for a lot of the world out there. This has nothing to do with the technical merits of SMD or how easy/hard it is to solder versus through-hole. For a lot of kids and makers in developing countries dip packages and veroboard are the only economically feasible gateway to start to make electronics. I don't understand why everybody is struggling to accept this. Perhaps it is just a failure to appreciate the economic lottery of where in the world we are born. To me it is sad that there are kids out there who would stop their curiousity just because of economic barriers, I hope AVR's dip packages continue to be produced for a long time to come.