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> We have been in lockdown since early June and went from 700 cases per day to 15 per day so it has technically worked. Victoria hasn't exited lockdown. How ca

> We have been in lockdown since early June and went from 700 cases per day to 15 per day so it has technically worked. Victoria hasn't exited lockdown. How can you say it worked? > Suppression is a good strategy when the world is devoid of a vaccine. I have heard the argument that suppression is a good strategy because a vaccine is soon to be approved. If we can't develop a vaccine I would hope suppression wouldn't be the strategy.

p1necone 6y ago
It worked because less people died. Some people (myself included) are more concerned with human lives than opening businesses faster.
- ketamine__ 6y ago
  Are your people (and yourself) more concerned with human lives than children getting an education and not falling behind? If so, how long should children suffer? As long as it takes?
  - II2II 6y ago
    Take a look at the provincial breakdown. The Atlantic provinces are in a position where kids are going to school, restrictions are being lifted, and the number of cases are in the single digits per week. For the most part, there is not spread within these provinces so efforts can focus upon verifying that people coming into the province aren't infected and ensuring the population complies with far less extreme measures so that the virus does not gain a foothold in the region yet again. Even parts of the country with a far greater number of infections than the Atlantic provinces are seeing numbers stabilize (e.g. Alberta) or decline (e.g. British Columbia). This is not the case in Ontario, where the spread is essentially uncontrolled. Measures need to be put into place because the living will continue to suffer as long as that spread is uncontrolled, and yes the loss of life matters as well. A few weeks to stabilize the situation will ensure that lives are not lost needlessly.
  - wolco2 6y ago
    Learning online will put them ahead of their peers. The world is moving remote. Children will be better served by learning how to interact and learn online. It will be a skill they use in the future. This has given them an opportunity. Some children are excelling in this new format.. teaching your kids how to excel in this environment will push them ahead.
    - ineedasername 6y ago
      Online kindergarten is a disaster. 1st & 2nd grade only slightly less so. A little older than that and things get a little easier, but that's only if the kids actually have halfway decent resources. My kids are slightly older than that, manage the school work okay, but are suffering otherwise due to the isolation. My daughter has been in tears multiple times because she doesn't get to see her friends. I bought an Oculus Quest so they could play Rec Room and have some semblance of social play & interaction. I live in a diverse area with lots of working-class people: It's not uncommon for kids in my school district to be using their parent's old phone as their online portal for distance learning. It's also not uncommon for parents who must work & can't afford child care to have an elderly relative watch their kids. Relatives that aren't always fluent English speakers, and often aren't equipped to help a kid navigate a curriculum spread across 5 or 6 different electronic systems.
- whatthesmack 6y ago
  And then some people (myself included) factor in externalities and realize more deaths have occurred because of the lockdowns (depression, lack of medical care, malnutrition, homelessness). Some of us are even more concerned with human lives than looking at the small picture of only the benefits of lockdown.
  - p1necone 6y ago
    Please show your working.
  - bawolff 6y ago
    Wait, so is malnutrition because people dont know how to feed themselves without help and so just starve during lockdown?
    - 8note 6y ago
      Generally Americans are unable to afford food for their children, so they rely on public schools to feed them. Without the school, the children go hungry
      - bawolff 6y ago
        Well that's fucked up, but to what extent does that apply to Ontario?
  - gregoryl 6y ago
    Suicide rate has dropped. Homeless people have been placed into accommodation (and is apparently proving to be cheaper than the previous services provided). Medical care is fully available? Malnutrition??
    - p1necone 6y ago
      Funnily if we embraced this "pretend there isn't a pandemic and do whatever we want" plan these people seem to be advocating hospitals would likely be so inundated with covid patients that there wouldn't be capacity for much other medical care. (Note that this isn't a hypothetical - we have real world examples - see New York a few months ago, or Spain.)
- deathgrips 6y ago
  Nuclear bombs would work even better than lockdowns. People can't die of Covid19 when they've already died from radiation and a nuclear blast.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- FpUser 6y ago
  And some people died because of lockdown due to cancelled medical treatments/surgeries they've conveniently called elective/can wait/etc. And what is happening to those suicide rates as people get ruined and desperate. And how many will die if the economy collapse goes out of control and there will be nothing to prevent those deaths. Do you actually have any info on those topics? If not how can you claim that it worked. Maybe it had just delayed inevitable but at higher overall cost. I live in Toronto, Ontario.
  - p1necone 6y ago
    You're the one arguing against the recommendations of most medical experts - the burden of proof is on you here.
- aeternum 6y ago
  If you believe minimizing death is more important than personal choice and economics then you should really be fighting to ban junk food and support laws that require everyone to exercise. Cardiovascular disease kills 655,000 Americans each year compared to Covid's 200,000.
- logicchains 6y ago
  Then how do you feel about the fact that globally the economic effects of lockdowns have plunged over a hundred million children into dire poverty, and could kill hundreds of thousands this year? https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/150-million-additional-children-plunged-poverty-due-covid-19-unicef-save-children https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/150-million-additional... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-children-un-idUSKBN21Y2X7 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-childr...
austhrow743 6y ago
NSW isn't locked down and we managed to sit at around 15 cases per day for a good while without it spiralling out of control and have dragged it right down to 0's some days and close to it on others. So if you assume that Victoria can contact trace almost as well as NSW, I think its fair to say it's worked because they've got to a number where contact tracing is effective.
rosege 6y ago
Doctors in Victoria have made a similar letter: https://www.coviddoctorsnetwork.com/ https://www.coviddoctorsnetwork.com/
- pugz 6y ago
  Thanks for sharing, I hadn't heard about that (I live in Victoria) That said, 500 docs out of ~31K in the state doesn't strike me as very compelling.

p1necone 6y ago

It worked because less people died. Some people (myself included) are more concerned with human lives than opening businesses faster.

ketamine__ 6y ago
Are your people (and yourself) more concerned with human lives than children getting an education and not falling behind? If so, how long should children suffer? As long as it takes?
- II2II 6y ago
  Take a look at the provincial breakdown. The Atlantic provinces are in a position where kids are going to school, restrictions are being lifted, and the number of cases are in the single digits per week. For the most part, there is not spread within these provinces so efforts can focus upon verifying that people coming into the province aren't infected and ensuring the population complies with far less extreme measures so that the virus does not gain a foothold in the region yet again. Even parts of the country with a far greater number of infections than the Atlantic provinces are seeing numbers stabilize (e.g. Alberta) or decline (e.g. British Columbia). This is not the case in Ontario, where the spread is essentially uncontrolled. Measures need to be put into place because the living will continue to suffer as long as that spread is uncontrolled, and yes the loss of life matters as well. A few weeks to stabilize the situation will ensure that lives are not lost needlessly.
- wolco2 6y ago
  Learning online will put them ahead of their peers. The world is moving remote. Children will be better served by learning how to interact and learn online. It will be a skill they use in the future. This has given them an opportunity. Some children are excelling in this new format.. teaching your kids how to excel in this environment will push them ahead.
  - ineedasername 6y ago
    Online kindergarten is a disaster. 1st & 2nd grade only slightly less so. A little older than that and things get a little easier, but that's only if the kids actually have halfway decent resources. My kids are slightly older than that, manage the school work okay, but are suffering otherwise due to the isolation. My daughter has been in tears multiple times because she doesn't get to see her friends. I bought an Oculus Quest so they could play Rec Room and have some semblance of social play & interaction. I live in a diverse area with lots of working-class people: It's not uncommon for kids in my school district to be using their parent's old phone as their online portal for distance learning. It's also not uncommon for parents who must work & can't afford child care to have an elderly relative watch their kids. Relatives that aren't always fluent English speakers, and often aren't equipped to help a kid navigate a curriculum spread across 5 or 6 different electronic systems.
whatthesmack 6y ago
And then some people (myself included) factor in externalities and realize more deaths have occurred because of the lockdowns (depression, lack of medical care, malnutrition, homelessness). Some of us are even more concerned with human lives than looking at the small picture of only the benefits of lockdown.
- p1necone 6y ago
  Please show your working.
- bawolff 6y ago
  Wait, so is malnutrition because people dont know how to feed themselves without help and so just starve during lockdown?
  - 8note 6y ago
    Generally Americans are unable to afford food for their children, so they rely on public schools to feed them. Without the school, the children go hungry
    - bawolff 6y ago
      Well that's fucked up, but to what extent does that apply to Ontario?
- gregoryl 6y ago
  Suicide rate has dropped. Homeless people have been placed into accommodation (and is apparently proving to be cheaper than the previous services provided). Medical care is fully available? Malnutrition??
  - p1necone 6y ago
    Funnily if we embraced this "pretend there isn't a pandemic and do whatever we want" plan these people seem to be advocating hospitals would likely be so inundated with covid patients that there wouldn't be capacity for much other medical care. (Note that this isn't a hypothetical - we have real world examples - see New York a few months ago, or Spain.)
deathgrips 6y ago
Nuclear bombs would work even better than lockdowns. People can't die of Covid19 when they've already died from radiation and a nuclear blast.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
FpUser 6y ago
And some people died because of lockdown due to cancelled medical treatments/surgeries they've conveniently called elective/can wait/etc. And what is happening to those suicide rates as people get ruined and desperate. And how many will die if the economy collapse goes out of control and there will be nothing to prevent those deaths. Do you actually have any info on those topics? If not how can you claim that it worked. Maybe it had just delayed inevitable but at higher overall cost. I live in Toronto, Ontario.
- p1necone 6y ago
  You're the one arguing against the recommendations of most medical experts - the burden of proof is on you here.
aeternum 6y ago
If you believe minimizing death is more important than personal choice and economics then you should really be fighting to ban junk food and support laws that require everyone to exercise. Cardiovascular disease kills 655,000 Americans each year compared to Covid's 200,000.
logicchains 6y ago
Then how do you feel about the fact that globally the economic effects of lockdowns have plunged over a hundred million children into dire poverty, and could kill hundreds of thousands this year? https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/150-million-additional-children-plunged-poverty-due-covid-19-unicef-save-children https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/150-million-additional... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-children-un-idUSKBN21Y2X7 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-childr...

austhrow743 6y ago

NSW isn't locked down and we managed to sit at around 15 cases per day for a good while without it spiralling out of control and have dragged it right down to 0's some days and close to it on others. So if you assume that Victoria can contact trace almost as well as NSW, I think its fair to say it's worked because they've got to a number where contact tracing is effective.

rosege 6y ago

Doctors in Victoria have made a similar letter: https://www.coviddoctorsnetwork.com/ https://www.coviddoctorsnetwork.com/

pugz 6y ago
Thanks for sharing, I hadn't heard about that (I live in Victoria) That said, 500 docs out of ~31K in the state doesn't strike me as very compelling.